so Shoppers took the points from all of "us" that were trading them ...right??? because it goes against the terms and conditions.. am i understanding this correctly?
so Shoppers took the points from all of "us" that were trading them ...right??? because it goes against the terms and conditions.. am i understanding this correctly?
Yes shoppers people were trading points and yes that is against your terms of use. That does nothing about the problem of people getting into other peoples accounts and changing personal information,names,email addresses,etc. That is fraud and something that shoppers seems to be content to look the other way on. So trading points or not, shoppers is turning a blind eye to people committing fraud on your costumers by taking advantage of a very lackluster security system. I realize that if shoppers would find out about trading points in any other way they would take back points and possibly close the account. That is one thing, the big issue that most people are concerned with is the possibility of identity theft and how easily your system is compromised.
Thank-you everyone for the kind words of support.
And thanks Boo that was very well put!
Oh and to answer a few questions. I had just under 150,000 points. I did participate in TAF events but that was more than a year ago. I did trade a few times. I did send my receipts in for MIRs. I didn't use any bonus point coupons (never mind to excess). My ID wasn't changed. My points disappeared. SDm did not say they revoked or took my points they just said they won't return them because I was trading (which I dumbly admitted out of ignorance) but I only trade 4 times in a year.
I just cancelled my SDM MC card. I don't trust it.
Trying to rebalance my remaining savings to cover more than I intended. Thank-goodness, I have SOF points so I hope they have their free turkey deal this year. I have enough SOF points for 2 turkeys WOOT! I love turkey leftovers!
And I suggest anyone who has been trading. Spend your points now and get a new card!
I've been reading about this last night and today... I'm sorry to all of you who are missing points. I don't have that many as I've only recently begun to put forth some effort in making the points work for me. They still appear to all be there as of today.
I'm interested to see if Shoppers will publicly release that they either revoked the points or if they were stolen (I'm guessing stolen, based on seeing info changed and that non-traders have had their vanish also).
If they were in fact stolen, it should make absolutely no difference to Shoppers whether or not the person was trading or transferring them. Theft is theft. What I'm gathering from what I've seen from Shoppers is this: "We don't care if your points were stolen, you traded once, so it's your fault." Somewhere there's a point thief with, I imagine, 6 XBoxes and maybe a few cameras for sale on Craigslist giggling with glee over this.
Shoppers should have the technical know how to detect where all the points have gone. They should, if they were stolen, be saying 'we are investigating this to the fullest extent'. It seems that in most cases there were high point balances. Perfect if you're wanting to steal points.
If it is, in fact, Shoppers revoking points based on trading activity, well, then they owe the people who haven't ever traded or transferred but are still missing points anyways. I'm also curious that if this is the case, why they targeted just a few people with high point balances? And why not tell people they've had their points revoked? It's not making much sense.
I think they were stolen. It's the only thing that makes sense to me. Shoppers needs to, regardless of any violations of TOS, investigate this. Shoppers is dropping the ball on this. They need to jack up the security of their website to at least requiring a login and password, and I think they need to make some sort of statement whether it was theft, or they were revoked. A gift of a shiny new car to all those affected, and myself, of course, would also not go amiss.
Interesting that their privacy policy suddenly means nothingQuote:
Originally Posted by starlette
I've participated in 2 TAF events in the past. My points are fine and I'm not worried about them being stolen because of those events. But I think I will ask for a new card anyway, just in case someone does hack into the site. That way SDM can't point to the TAF events as a compromise in my account. I also won't be participating in any more TAFs.
As far as whether or not trading should be cancelled on this site... I think there should just be a warning as a sticky on the trading site. It would be hard to monitor what people trade for and the traders are adults, so they are responsible for their own actions.
I really feel for the people who lost their points and I do think SDM needs to improve the security on their site. But I do see their point about not giving them back. You see warnings from businesses everywhere saying that they are not responsible for lost or stolen items. Also, we can't assume that they haven't investigated or dealt with the person/people who stole the points just because they aren't telling people. The fact that they are telling people that they aren't giving them back because of trades may indicate that they've found a link between some of the people who lost points that that points to a common thief and they just aren't sharing the information.
Thank you for this! Common sense goes a long way.
Many of us have made 'coupon' friends.. I've gotten Christmas cards and gifts from my coupon friends.. I've met at least 10 people from SC and a few of them have come to my house to pick up coupons or items. They clearly said we could transfer to family and friends. They didn't specify what type of friends they should be. They tell us to transfer yet tell us not to give out our numbers to anyone. They let someone STEAL their customers points/$$ and instead of treating it as a crime and try to correct it.. they blame their customers. Its an odd system. I recently bought GCs from them that ended up having a 0 balance. It will be interesting to see if they find a way to blame me for that.
I did post a thread on SDM facebook page yesterday and someone responded who isn't a member of SC but experienced a similar problem a while back.
Sheri Visscher-Leifso My account had this happen a few months ago. It wasn't until I tried to sign into the online calculator that I noticed I could not log on with my information. When I called the HO, they told me that the name on the account did not match my own. They were not going to give me any of the points and offered to have me open a new account. The original card had my name on the back!!! After several hours on the phone, and a few tears... a wonderful "supervisor" agreed that I wasn't a thief and put my original amount of points earned put back on a new account.
I asked if she was a member of smartcanucks
Sheri Visscher-Leifso I was not a member of Smart Canucks. I was just "checking" my point balance on line when I couldn't log in. Once they found another name on my account they froze my card... So I couldn't redeem what points were on it.
To all the wonderful people of Smart Canucks:
Both Chris and I think that it is a terrible thing that people have had their points stolen and in the case of Holly, being denied the return of their points based on "trading". This is hardly a reason to deny returning the points to her. Can they, in factm, point to the exact transactions where (I am assuming) she made "trades" for points, and prove that they were not to a family member or "friend", as is in the Terms of Service? I am sure that the people we make trades with here are considered our "friends". They are certainly not enemies.
So we think that SDM is using the term "friend" very loosely as a way to not return the points to her (and if there are others we have missed here).
The situation still remains whereby Shoppers Drug Mart has a very lax security system in place for the Optimimum Program, and this is something that they refuse to admit. Why won't they admit it? Well one reason could be that it could possibly expose them to being legally responsible for the loss of points by people who hack accounts, thus they blame the user for "trading". A simple way of getting around the issue.
Chris did lead a group of the last Tell A Friend event and had no problems whatsoever with it. Peoples card numbers were collected, saved, then destroyed once all of them confirmed to Chris their points were in their account.
That said, he will not be running a group this year and probably will not participate in it either, lest he be accused of any wrongdoing by either someone here or SDM. He does by the way, use a third card for any transactions like this, but nonetheless will not be participating in it either. Also, he will no longer be trading points with any other members of SC, save and except for the ones that he has traded with before and that we have trust in.
As for what to do about the "rules" here on SC... I nor Chris offer no opinions on it. We love this site and it is run by exceptional people. Forums are not an easy thing to run, Chris has run one before and it was a lot of work every single day with it.
We will leave it to the powers that be to decide if new rules have to be implemented on here.
In the meantime, I think we should keep up the pressure on SDM to change their login process to that of something more secure. In the end, everyone comes out ahead in that situation!
I recently bought GCs from them that ended up having a 0 balance.
Holy s***! Millie, was this during the promo for GCs? Didn't you buy a ton of those???
I think the whole problem from SDM's point of view isn't whether or not you consider fellow SCers friends or not, but that there was trading with these friends, at least in some cases. I don't know the full details of each person's situation, so can't speculate on how many were actually trading. But I do agree they should add a password.Quote:
Originally Posted by theweave
Agreed, Boo's message is very well written and a good call to action. Let's hope SDM listens! Thanks Boo!Quote:
Originally Posted by Carrla
I'm wondering if any one has filed a complaint with the Better Business Bureau??
They are usually very good at mediating issues! And I know that Shoppers won't like the idea of all of your complaints with the Better Business Bureau. If the Better Business Bureau believes they are in the wrong the will lose there standing with them ....and no business wants that. I don't know....might be an option.
this is what I'm thinking is happening.
A LOT of people had their points stolen - and redeemed. By the sounds of it to the tune of quite a bit of money.
SDM is finding ANY reason necessary to not return the points because they will be out that money since the other points have already been redeemed.
Shady yes, and ridiculous.
I would cause the biggest s&*@storm imaginable if I was one of you. For real. IF they did not want you to trade, THERE SHOULD NOT BE A TRADE FEATURE. end of story!
I spoke with them again today and will be faxing my receipts and confirmation e-mails of points transferred as well they want a copy of my DL....I spoke with "Anna" who I am suppose to make my fax Attn to her...I have NOT been told I will be loosing my points as of yet ...so I am still holding on to hope...
I did not ...use this card for TAF Event
...............or multiple trades
...............I gave it to 1 person on SC
...............Use BP coupons more than once
...............nor have lots of activity on the card
...............have any of my info changed other than my e-mail addy
I am sorry for those who have lost their points as it really does not seem fair....if you traded fine take those points back ! but the ones earned should be given back !
Bottom line is that Shoppers is ensuring that the customer is out the money....not SDM....
Has any of the victims contacted the BBB or Marketplace? There are at least 9 victims here, enough to make a point. Marketplace would be all over this! A large company with poor security failing to come through for their loyal customers in their own loyalty program! What a story!
I talked about it today with a group of people - they couldn't believe it. They are not SC, just regular shoppers who pay full price. Their reaction:
1) how can such a large company be so graceless during the holiday season
2) what a missed PR moment for SDM - give a stern warning but return points and be seen as an outstanding company - instead they are a heartless corporation - it seems many retailers have forgotten the value of a grand gesture
3) is SDM aware of how many people are hearing about this - not just the 9 - but through word of mouth - I have already told a lot of people...
4) remember the Dell incident? Guy got treated horribly by Dell - said he was going to post it everywhere - they said go ahead. He did. He ended up on Good Morning America with the president of Dell - who looked like a fool. They generously fixed the problem.
Is anyone how has been wronged going to do anything?
This has been a crazy busy week but I had to take the time to post this because I cannot believe the way SDM is handling this and the way they are treating those affected. In the cases where they said they revoked points due to trading – they waited till the holiday season and till members had built up their points for the mega-redemption and then confiscated all of the points? Sorry, but that is pre-meditated theft in my book.
Also, keep in mind that just because SDM says they are not liable doesn’t mean it’s true. You know those permission slips schools make parents sign when their kids go on trips saying the school is not responsible? They have been successfully challenged in court.
Some other thoughts and suggestions:
1) Get everything in writing. Communicate by email or fax if necessary. Keep notes on who you spoke to and when.
2) Make hard copies of SDM’s emails, posts on FB, info on the SDM website that may be interpreted as vague or contradictory (e.g. the email -- post? -- saying to share points to help during the mega-redemption).
3) Specifically ask and demand an answer to the question: Did SDM revoke my points or were they stolen by a third party?
4) Go to corporate HQ. You can try:
Tammy Smitham, Director, Communications & Corporate Affairs at (416) 490-2892, or
[email protected] or (416) 493-1220, ext. 5500. She is likely responsible for Public Relations.
Or call the switchboard and ask for the VP of Customer Relations. Here are some other names to keep at hand.
Domenic Pilla
President & Chief Executive Officer
Frank Pedinelli
Senior Vice-President, Legal Affairs & General Counsel
Sandra Sanderson
Senior Vice-President, Marketing
5) Consider contacting your local news station if they have a consumer segment, or a show like Marketplace (which someone else also mentioned), filing a claim with BBB (also mentioned), going to small claims against SDM for the value of your points, contacting a reporter at your local paper.
6) I believe there is a good case here for a class action against SDM for the lax security they have on their website. Class action because we don’t actually know who else across Canada has been a victim of points being stolen due to easy access to accounts via the SDM website. If any of you end up doing a media interview, perhaps you can mention there was a suggestion of a class action against SDM for their lax website security. Maybe some lawyers’ ears will perk up.
7) There is a website that allows you to set up an online petition. (Sorry, I don’t have time to search for it now – maybe someone else can?) I have signed a couple of them. There is room to put comments. It’s a good way to gather support to get the Optimum sign-in process changed, as well as to possibly find out if there are many non-SC optimum members who have had their points stolen or revoked.
8) Tell the owner of the store(s) you shop at why you will no longer be shopping there, and especially about the poor security on the website that allowed thousands of dollars worth of points to be stolen. Let them put pressure on SDM to change the sign-in process.
9) Make a fuss, become a nuisance, spread the word about what SDM has done and how they have treated you.
10) This will come back to bite SDM in the a$$.
To those of you who have had your points stolen or revoked, I want to say again (since the thread I originally posted in has been deleted) how sorry I am this happened to you. I haven’t been able to keep up with all the posts, but I’ve read enough that I can say I admire the way you are handling this situation with grace and even some of you, with humour.
Hugs,
Silk
Anyone who is in the legal profession and the police profession... what would your opinions be on this situation. To me, this is clearly theft and identity theft. I see SDM's response to this to be irresponsible. If SDM does nothing to fix the security breach in regards to access to Optinum accounts in fraudalent procedures, than I would expect a class action to happen. We should demand changes made to security... and if they don't and this keeps happening... a class action should be persued.
Those that had points stolen and SDM won't do anything... you should enquire if the local police have been notified or speak to the police yourself. Has SDM even contacted the police about this?
Can those affected request a transcript of their account activity from SDM. It is "your account" so there can't be any breach in privacy.
The fact that they promote sharing points between family and friends is going against their own rules. So it is OK for them to break the rules and punish those that follow their lead.
I strongly feel a class action is needed here. If they continue to do nothing...more unwary shoppers will be jipped.
i was in chris's group and no complaints here. fantastic job as group leader. however, i also will never do the event again. i don't trade now so that's not an issue.
sorry meant to quote weave's response in here first. too early in the morning!
i wonder if they werent stolen and SDM did take them? but then why would those that didnt trade have them gone? there seems to be much more to it then SDM is admitting. Regardless if anyone broke TOC or not, there was fraud and they should at least be investigating that part of it. That would be like Mastercard saying well you purchased online and now you have fraud on your account, too bad. But no, they investigate and give you back that money.
From their point of view it's not a Trading feature, it's a Transfer feature. Receiving anything in exchange for SDM points is against their rules. I wouldn't be surprised if the security is changed, and I wonder if they'll also change the paper you sign to make the part where it states the rules against trading in big, bold print. I know it's the consumer's responsibility to read what you're signing, but I'm pretty sure most people don't read the fine print. I also hope they put out a statement to clarify what their position is.Quote:
Originally Posted by seventhwave
I agree Melly. I feel like so much more has happened here that they aren't (and will not) admit. I had a feeling that they weren't going to give any points back - so far, unfortunately, it seems like I am right.Quote:
Originally Posted by mellyskater
Any updates on any of the family members?
I have a question about the points going missing. When points are transferred isn't an email sent to the person who transferred the points?
yes an email is sent, but if they changed the email or removed it i guess you wouldnt get it. Whomever did this obviously knew how to avoid this. It just makes me wonder why some accounts had ppl's names and identities changed but others didnt (or not that we know of).
You have the option of recieving an email or not, so whoever transferred the points probably unclicked that option.
Just my two cents: For those victims who have never traded points, there might be a case to fight with SDM to get points back. But for those who have traded points (-receipt of incoming points to the account), there might be a tough battle.
I work for a bank and know that once you've let others (friends or family) use your bank card or know any info related to your card, you won't be covered when your card is skimmed / compromised and the money in your account is stolen. The rule has been legally enforced for many years.
How the bank proves that you've let others use your bank card or know your card info is not easy, but for SDM, finding past transactions where you received incoming points in the account is just a click away.
All great points everyone & thanks for all your support with this mess!!
SDM is being very vague as they are not saying you did XXX so this is why the points are gone nor admiting that someone took the points! Just that (in my case) you did too many transactions on your account! OK so where does it say that there is a limit for transfers?? and believe me I've had transfers from friends/family but no means in the hundreds?? So this really baffles me!!
I'm extremely concerned that someone CHANGED my account info & still have my name, addy & DOB & email info & SDM doesn't give a hoot about that!!
I'm am going to pursue this further until i can't more answers from them...they still have not had a higher up person call me as they said someone would within 24-48hrs when I spoke to HO on Dec 07.
My next step will be to contact the District Manager & find out if he still wants my business or not!! I'm a loyal customer & spent approx $1800 since Aug 29 & I earned my points fair & square!
BTW...if someone RAOK'd you points do you consider that a trade?? Nothing was exchanged???
I suppose that's where they're vague "Disposed Of" policy comes in.
That can be interpenetrated in any way shape or form, to the average person it would be assumed their policy when using the term "disposed of" means you cannot get rid of your points in any way shape or form, but they encourage sharing amongst family. So, I can dispose of my points to close family and friends, but that term is used when it benefits shoppers drug mart and not the consumer.