I think I'm turning into a crank.

omg, this reminds me of what happened last week.
I live in an apartment building, a small apartment building, with apprxo 12 units.
we have the old style buzzer to get in.
So im coming home from work one day and see something sticking out from under my door.

I bend down and pick it up and its so leaflet for some praise jesus thingy.
I was so insulted I crumpled it up in a ball and left it in the lobby.

#1 HOW did they get into my apartment building when you cannot get in without BUZZING someone who lives in the building.
#2 what right do they have to canvass religious phamlets under my door?
#3 it doesnt matter what religion you are, it is definitely not cool to force your beliefs on others.

so yea i know exactly how you feel

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Originally Posted by MortgageQueen

Some very good questions Marstec. As for feeling bad. . . well of course we all do because it's human nature to want to be liked. The thing is. . . the few scriptures I quoted on preaching were just that. . .there are dozens.(So no, I don't think we have taken the Bible too literally. ) In fact the whole theme of the Jesus "ministry", his instructions to his apostles, his disciples and all of the early Christian congregation was literally built around preaching activity.
I say with all good humour (which most of you know I have) that we do NOT love having doors slammed in our faces or being verbally abused. :) Perhaps see it like this. . . If you knew from the most reliable source known to man, some catastrophic event was going to come to let's say, Toronto. . . how far would you go to warn the millions of people there? Would you just try once or twice or a dozen times to warn them? We are talking about millions of people and maybe the majority didn't believe you. Would you give up? Probably not. . .especially if that reliable source who gave you that solid information entrusted you to make sure absolutely everyone was warned to the utmost degree. Not only that. . .but the place where these people can find shelter is a hundred times better then where they are now anyways.
We totally appreciate that people want to make their own decisions. We're not there to make a decision for you, just trying to pass on a vital message. We are not trying to wear people down either (that made me smile:) But as I posted earlier there have literally been millions of people that have changed their own minds for one reason or another. My own husband was one of them as was his father, as were many of my friends. . .
I think people believe we are judging them and we're not at all. We all voluntarily do this with whatever time we can. . .and I can tell you that many of us aren't talented speakers. . .maybe don't make the point the way we should. . possibly come across the wrong way. . but we're all just ordinary people.
There are a few Jw's that don't go door to door. Many are old or sick or incapable in some way, but they usually find their own way of passing on the message. And no, there is not a punitive measure if you don't. I think it's more a matter of your own conscience. . knowing what you do and not sharing it.
In regards to how we are all bombarded with advertising and pushy sales techniques. . . .yes, it IS very overwhelming. But we don't want a blessed thing from you. In fact all we want to do, is give you something. To quote Jesus in Matthew 10:8- "you received free, give free."

For TudorChick: If you do not wish anyone to call on you anymore, you can ask that you be put on the "Do not Call List" It generally works well but occasionally someone messes up, cause we're just volunteers and some do better then others.

I hope this answers some of your questions. If I offend anybody, it is not my intention.

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While I don't really believe in any specific religion, I am glad you've been so open in sharing your beliefs with us MQ. I was a bit worried when this thread started because you never know who belongs to what religion and who you might be offending. A good friend of mine was a JW when she was younger (not anymore though), but I've heard SOO many people say some really means things about JW around her, without having any idea. It's nice when you can have an open, honest conversation about beliefs, or the difference in, without any name calling, rudeness etc etc. Hopefully no one here offended YOU either as you've been nothing but honest in your answers. :)

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Originally Posted by Speckled28

While I don't really believe in any specific religion, I am glad you've been so open in sharing your beliefs with us MQ. I was a bit worried when this thread started because you never know who belongs to what religion and who you might be offending. A good friend of mine was a JW when she was younger (not anymore though), but I've heard SOO many people say some really means things about JW around her, without having any idea. It's nice when you can have an open, honest conversation about beliefs, or the difference in, without any name calling, rudeness etc etc. Hopefully no one here offended YOU either as you've been nothing but honest in your answers. :)

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Thank-you Speckled28. I'm not unaccustomed to hearing mean things tho. keeps us humble. . . :)

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Originally Posted by MortgageQueen

Poirot “Someone told me recently her about brotherdying in an accident as a child.Their neighbours were JW and a few days afterhe died they told their mother that her son was in hell because he wasn't JW.”

Poirot, I’m really struggling to understandthis statement. JW’s unequivicably, vehemently and absolutely DO NOT believe inHellfire! Or a place like Hell that many religions promote. After a serious andthorough (and believe me. . and I mean thorough) examination of theBible, we have found nothing to substantiate such a horrible thing. God is aGod of love.

In regards to the “idea or theory” ofHellfire or continuous torture. .Ithink the Bible explains it best in even this just onescripture.
Jerimiah 7:30,31- ‘For the sons of Judah have done whatis bad in my eyes,’ is the utterance of Jehovah. ‘They have set theirdisgusting things in the house upon which my name has been called, in order todefile it. ³¹ And they have built the high places of To′pheth,which is in the valley of the son of Hin′nom, in order to burn their sons andtheir daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had notcome up into my heart.’

Noticethe last sentence. . . . God says he didnot command such a thing nor did it even come up into his heart. . . . or you could say, it hadn’t even occurredto him!

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MQ, I do agree with some of the things you say. I definitely don't mean any disrespect or want to be antagonistic but I did want to mention a few things I've seen, heard, and read. I should also mention that I'm not an authority on these matters and my background is not JW, so I am completely unfamiliar with what JWs believe.

This is Jeremiah 7:30-32 (NIV) according to biblegateway.com:

³⁰ “‘The people of Judah have done evil in my eyes, declares the LORD. They have set up their detestable idols in the house that bears my Name and have defiled it. ³¹ They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind. ³² So beware, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room.

God seems to be referring to children being burned in the fire at Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, which was a place of child sacrifice by the Canaanites in Jerusalem according to wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topheth God said the sacrifice of children was evil - something he did not command or think of. I don't think he was referring to hell. Here's the passage in context:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...34&version=NIV

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Originally Posted by MortgageQueen

What we DO believe:
I thinkthis scripture sums it up nicely. . . . Eccesiastes 9: 5,10

⁵ For the livingare conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious ofnothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance ofthem has been forgotten. Vs.10. “All that your hand finds to do, do with yourvery power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She′ol,the place to which you are going.”

Soyou see. . . no hell fire. Even Jesus referred to it as a deep sleep.

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The Book of Ecclesiastes is part of the Old Testament and scholars generally believe it was written near the time of Jesus' birth, so I don't think it was Jesus' words in Ecclesiastes. If you mean Jesus as in God, then I agree if you meant it was God's words.

Poirot didn't mention anything about fire, but Jesus did mention fire in hell in Matthew 5:22, Matthew 18:9, and Mark 9:43 (also from BibleGateway.com, NIV):

Matthew 5:22
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Matthew 18:9
And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

Mark 9:43
If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

I think fire exists in hell, but I don't know that it's only a fire pit. There may be areas where there isn't fire, I don't know.

Again, I'm not really here to debate (it's one of my pet peeves) or to ruffle anyone's feathers. This forum is not meant for that or religious debates, but I wanted to contribute what I understand in the limited capacity I have. I'm not an expert by any means, but I do read a little and thought I'd share some of the things I've come across.

I do think the JWs are very brave to spend their time out knocking on people's doors and initiating conversations with strangers. I've been asked to solicit donations for the city's food bank at major sports events and it feels really horrible when people look past you as if you don't exist or shut you out. A no thank you would be great. At least they're acknowledged as a human. For some, it's hard to imagine the JW at their door or saying hello on the street would really be more comfortable at home watching a movie or spending time with friends. I don't think any sane person actually thinks rejection is fun and wakes up each day looking forward to it. I do believe JWs are people too and it takes a special kind of courage to do it over and over again.

And to respond to Marstec, you're not a crank. I actually don't even answer the door unless I'm expecting guests. The answering machine screens all my calls and I check my call display if I'm not home.

You know you've got true friends when they're that persistent to get a hold of you, call you with their cellphones standing on your doorstep, suffering through your generic answering messages, wave from your patio window..... :embarassed: :flowers: Oh, I do appreciate all my friends though!

I could be training for debt collection agencies! :cheesygrin:

If you're a crank, I'm right there with you! :top:

I don't have caller id, so if my family wants to get a hold of me, they know to leave a message or call back right away.

I don't mind being a crank...seems I have a bit of company.:lol:

Thanks to everyone for participating in this discussion and sharing your unique perspectives. I hope there are no hurt feelings because of it...that was never my intention.

Tara, I love learning about beliefs that are very similar to mine, but i don't want them knocking on my door thanks! :)

[QUOTE=sweet sparrow;4589570]MQ, I do agree with some of the things you say. I definitely don't mean any disrespect or want to be antagonistic but I did want to mention a few things I've seen, heard, and read. I should also mention that I'm not an authority on these matters and my background is not JW, so I am completely unfamiliar with what JWs believe.

Dear sweetsparrow. .. I am not in the least bit offended. I thought we were merely having a discussion. That's what I like about most members of SC. They can voice their opinion without being rude or insulting. . . and you are neither of those!

This is Jeremiah 7:30-32 (NIV) according to biblegateway.com:

³⁰ “‘The people of Judah have done evil in my eyes, declares the LORD. They have set up their detestable idols in the house that bears my Name and have defiled it. ³¹ They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind. ³² So beware, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room.

God seems to be referring to children being burned in the fire at Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, which was a place of child sacrifice by the Canaanites in Jerusalem according to wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topheth God said the sacrifice of children was evil - something he did not command or think of. I don't think he was referring to hell. Here's the passage in context:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...34&version=NIV
Sorry if I did not explain myself very well there. What I was referring to was the "act" of burning a human in a fire was despicible to God (in this instance/example) and it even states that such a thought did not even "enter his mind".So why would he ever dream up such a horrible place as a burning Hell to torment people? You could think of it this way. A decent yet quite imperfect human being would be horrified and repulsed at the idea of punishing a naughty child by holding their hand over a fire or flame. So why would the "God of Love" ever conceive of such a thing??



The Book of Ecclesiastes is part of the Old Testament and scholars generally believe it was written near the time of Jesus' birth, so I don't think it was Jesus' words in Ecclesiastes. If you mean Jesus as in God, then I agree if you meant it was God's words.
Again, my fault. I wasn't clear. No I don't believe Jesus is God (yikes! that's a whole different topic! :)
. . and I didn't mean to infer it was Jesus speaking in Ecclesiastes.

Poirot didn't mention anything about fire, but Jesus did mention fire in hell in Matthew 5:22, Matthew 18:9, and Mark 9:43 (also from BibleGateway.com, NIV):

Matthew 5:22
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Matthew 18:9
And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

Mark 9:43
If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

I think fire exists in hell, but I don't know that it's only a fire pit. There may be areas where there isn't fire, I don't know.

I can't say I'm too familiar with Biblegateway or which translations they use. Many translations use the words Gehenna or Hades as well. This is one very important area where a study and cross-examintion of the complete Bible is so crucial, because in contrast to what many say, the Bible doesn't conflict with itself. For example. . . the scripture I quoted earlier saying "the dead are conscious of nothing at all" and the one you quoted implies a danger of being in "the fire of hell"(after death).
So which is right? It seems they say opposite things. (the following is the "short"explanation)
Well they're both right. Gehenna (or hades or Hell) was in fact an actual place. Evidence indicates (from Scholars other then JW's :) that this was a place in the valley of Hinnom where the people burned their garbage and carcasses (occasionally adding sulphur) so that it was completely burned up and destroyed.
So Jesus was using Gehenna or Hell as representing utter destruction. So in that way, it makes complete sense for you as a person to "avoid" such a destruction, you would be "better off" to destroy the "eye" or the "hand" that might lead you into that destruction.
Another example of that symbolism is in the bible book of James 3:6 "Well, the tongue is a fire. The tongue is constituted a world of unrighteousness among our members, for it spots up all the body and sets the wheel of natural life aflame and it is set aflame by Ge·he′na.

So obviously here again an "unrighteous tongue" is not set on fire by Gehenna or hell but is a symbol of it's destructiveness.


Again, I'm not really here to debate (it's one of my pet peeves) or to ruffle anyone's feathers. This forum is not meant for that or religious debates, but I wanted to contribute what I understand in the limited capacity I have. I'm not an expert by any means, but I do read a little and thought I'd share some of the things I've come across.

I'm glad you did bring these things up Sweetsparrow. Thank-you. I obviously left holes in my explanation. ( and probably did again. . .sigh)

My family isn't as polite as the rest of yours!

My mom had JWs come to her house once. She told them flat out that she'd be dead if it wasn't for blood transfusions (they're against them, to my knowledge, could be wrong, it has something to do with the purity of the human body). After she told them that they tried even harder to convert her. She just stood there with her hands on her hips and yelled "I AM ALIVE BECAUSE OF A BLOOD TRANSFUSION! Do you people not get it? If it wasn't for that transfusion I'd be DEAD." I think the sight of a pissed off Scottish woman scared them because they never came back.

I was far more rude and immature with them. When I was about 18 they came to our door. I'd had enough. I respect people's rights to religion, I just wish they, including all religions, would respect my right not to be religious. So I decided to have some fun. I opened the door with my hair all a mess, my clothes all disheveled and panting like mad. I just looked at them and said "WHAT? You just interrupted the best sex of my life!" They ran away pretty quickly.. and never have come back!
It's so childish and immature, but it worked lol!

Well, That IS kind of funny. . .I have to admit. We've had people come to the door naked too. . .which is also funny if you can carry on a conversation with a straight face (which I can totally do) I just have to control myself from all the remarks that pop into my head ,like . . . (glancing down) saying, Oh dear. . . I'm so sorry. . . .
THAT is truly the tough part.
Re Blood; there's a new documentary coming out this spring (which has absolutely NOTHING to do with JW's) sneak-peek here.
http://www.asiageographic.com/productions_pnn.html This is actually very old news to us, but may come as quite a surprise to others.

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Originally Posted by MortgageQueen

Well, That IS kind of funny. . .I have to admit. We've had people come to the door naked too. . .which is also funny if you can carry on a conversation with a straight face (which I can totally do) I just have to control myself from all the remarks that pop into my head ,like . . . (glancing down) saying, Oh dear. . . I'm so sorry. . . .
THAT is truly the tough part.

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You are a riot, MQ!

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Originally Posted by marstec

You are a riot, MQ!

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ya. . .probably shouldn't have admitted that. .. . . :)

Inside voice...inside voice!!! :yikes:

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Originally Posted by sweet sparrow

Inside voice...inside voice!!! :yikes:

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sweet sparrow,
Does this mean there are voices in your head speaking to you? That usually means you are goin' squirrelly, not cranky.:cheesygrin:

Anyone else disgusted at other people's hygiene habits? I was at Safeway today and as I stepped out of my car, I noticed that someone had hucked out two huge wads of greenish phlegm. Totally disgusted...I briefly thought about moving my car to a different spot! Last week, as I was waiting at a stop sign, I looked in my rear-view mirror, just in time to see some guy pick his nose and eat it!

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Originally Posted by marstec

sweet sparrow,
Does this mean there are voices in your head speaking to you? That usually means you are goin' squirrelly, not cranky.:cheesygrin:

Anyone else disgusted at other people's hygiene habits? I was at Safeway today and as I stepped out of my car, I noticed that someone had hucked out two huge wads of greenish phlegm. Totally disgusted...I briefly thought about moving my car to a different spot! Last week, as I was waiting at a stop sign, I looked in my rear-view mirror, just in time to see some guy pick his nose and eat it!

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Awwwwwww, that is DISGUSTING!!!!!!