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Thread: So Disappointed

  1. #31
    Smart Canuck SavenRaven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronwen View Post
    Bless you for the work you do. It's people like you who truly make the difference. Is this your job or..?

    Either way I respect it. When DD was born in 2010 DH worked in the summer (is a grad student at Mac so works very sporadically during the year) part time at Williams and took temp work when they had it available and I was having a lot of trouble breastfeeding so contacted our local Catholic church for help. They sent out someone a few days later with some sample cans of expired formula saying 'its expired but it should be ok'..... I was speechless. I knew the guy was just a volunteer so may not have understood the seriousness of expired formula (I wouldn't even eat expired food let alone give my baby expired food!). I thanked him but was fuming inside. I threw it out but will never forget how one of the richest organizations in the world could not have the decency or respect to offer a baby in need proper care.

    I try hard to help people when I can and there are so many organizations and individuals like yourself who make such a positive difference in the lives of others.

    I believe you and others like you who actually SEE it and work surrounded by it are much more educated about what goes on just through experience and seeing it first hand.

    Not my job, just something I do personally.

    Horrible that they would give you expired formula!! What is worse is that there are desperate mothers who would use the expired formula because they have no choice. This makes me so sad... so, so sad. I wish i could help everyone.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronwen View Post
    I'm sure some of you have seen this pic floating around fb. I can't seem to attach it to this post using my phone but it says something along the lines of, 'If you can afford cigarettes, booze, drugs etc hen you don't need welfare or food stamps'.... It just makes me so mad I thought I'd share my thoughts.

    I don't know if it's just everyone following the leader agreeing with everyone else, or if most people actually think this way.

    I was raised to treat everyone with kindness and respect and compassion. I find this photo to be hateful and just plain ignorant. A lot of people on social assistance are down in their luck and if we judge them and put them down and slander them I don't see it helping their situation.. Instead of hiding behind a computer screen writing 'Amen!' why don't we get involved and reach out to those in need and going through a hard time.

    A lot of people on social assistance are only on it for a short time to help them through a rough patch. Others are single mothers who need a hand and probably still don't get enough help. Yes, some people on assistance are on drugs or smoke but a lot of these people had a crap hand dealt to them from the get go and instead of being sh*t on they need people who care and can offer real constructive help.

    I am so saddened by the mindset of people; so quick to judge but really don't care to help.

    End of rant. Maybe I dug myself into a hole here; I can see a lot of people disagreeing with me lol.
    I am also going to disagree with you. Cigarettes, booze & drugs are not necessities in life. Also, I do help. I donate to the food bank regularly. The food bank is designed to help people who need help covering one of the basic needs of life, food. I also help out at Christmas time and buy Christmas gifts for low income children.

    I see people abusing welfare all the time. Just an example that pops into my mind: one girl who I know through a relative lives in my town has two children. She is on welfare& rents a house. Has TWO vehicles (and they aren't clunkers). She is a smoker. Goes tanning at the tanning salon every day. Has manicured gel nails ALL the time ($40 a fill in our town I might add). I see her in the Tim Horton's drive through every lunch hour when I'm getting my coffee before coming back to work - every...day... Openly comments that she uses drugs (marijuana). Wears designer clothes that I couldn't afford. Updates her facebook from her I-phone.

    This irritates me because a) I work full time & so does DH, our income is considered middle class & we don't have kids. b) I sometimes feel like i am struggling to afford my ONE 4 year old car. c)We still have to do without alot of things because we simply cant afford the luxury. Gel nails? No way could I afford $40 every three weeks. I-phone? Not affordable for us. Smoking? Well not that I would want to, but I'd probably be homeless if I started because we couldn't afford a mortgage and $300 a month of cigarettes d) My relative offered this girl a full time job (above minimum wage) in which she refused because she would loose her welfare. e) Most of DH and my clothes are purchased from a second hand clothing store. $5 jeans rather than $50 jeans means I'll have an extra $45 to put into our savings or home.

    I'm all for helping people when they are having hard times. If someone is down & out and they really need it, I totally agree that a temporary helping hand is needed and should be given. However, I do think welfare should be monitored alot better than what it is. I like the debit card that was mentioned above. Rent paid directly to the land lord also is a good suggestion. The money from taxpayers should be used to cover rent, food, school supplies for children, sensible priced clothing, electricity, heat and some mode of transportation (public transport or a sensible vehicle if in an area there isn't public transport). If they want cigarettes, liquor, drugs, iphones, gel nails and designer clothes, that shouldn't be paid for by tax dollars. That should come from money that they earn themselves.

    Why does this irritate me? Because DH and I only spend a few precious hours together each evening as the rest of our day is spent at work, trying to provide for ourselves. I imagine it will irritate me even more if/when we have children and I drop them off at a babysitters for the entire day, then drive by the tanning salon on my way to work and see the girl mentioned above getting her sun-kissed glow and her manicure filled while her children are in daycare.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nettie View Post
    I am also going to disagree with you. Cigarettes, booze & drugs are not necessities in life. Also, I do help. I donate to the food bank regularly. The food bank is designed to help people who need help covering one of the basic needs of life, food. I also help out at Christmas time and buy Christmas gifts for low income children.

    I see people abusing welfare all the time. Just an example that pops into my mind: one girl who I know through a relative lives in my town has two children. She is on welfare& rents a house. Has TWO vehicles (and they aren't clunkers). She is a smoker. Goes tanning at the tanning salon every day. Has manicured gel nails ALL the time ($40 a fill in our town I might add). I see her in the Tim Horton's drive through every lunch hour when I'm getting my coffee before coming back to work - every...day... Openly comments that she uses drugs (marijuana). Wears designer clothes that I couldn't afford. Updates her facebook from her I-phone.

    This irritates me because a) I work full time & so does DH, our income is considered middle class & we don't have kids. b) I sometimes feel like i am struggling to afford my ONE 4 year old car. c)We still have to do without alot of things because we simply cant afford the luxury. Gel nails? No way could I afford $40 every three weeks. I-phone? Not affordable for us. Smoking? Well not that I would want to, but I'd probably be homeless if I started because we couldn't afford a mortgage and $300 a month of cigarettes d) My relative offered this girl a full time job (above minimum wage) in which she refused because she would loose her welfare. e) Most of DH and my clothes are purchased from a second hand clothing store. $5 jeans rather than $50 jeans means I'll have an extra $45 to put into our savings or home.

    I'm all for helping people when they are having hard times. If someone is down & out and they really need it, I totally agree that a temporary helping hand is needed and should be given. However, I do think welfare should be monitored alot better than what it is. I like the debit card that was mentioned above. Rent paid directly to the land lord also is a good suggestion. The money from taxpayers should be used to cover rent, food, school supplies for children, sensible priced clothing, electricity, heat and some mode of transportation (public transport or a sensible vehicle if in an area there isn't public transport). If they want cigarettes, liquor, drugs, iphones, gel nails and designer clothes, that shouldn't be paid for by tax dollars. That should come from money that they earn themselves.

    Why does this irritate me? Because DH and I only spend a few precious hours together each evening as the rest of our day is spent at work, trying to provide for ourselves. I imagine it will irritate me even more if/when we have children and I drop them off at a babysitters for the entire day, then drive by the tanning salon on my way to work and see the girl mentioned above getting her sun-kissed glow and her manicure filled while her children are in daycare.
    This post makes me sad...........

    Sad that I cant Click the LIKE button a million times!!!! :D

    Very well said!!!
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  4. #34
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    Not that there is a real issue yet, but as mentioned this has been discussed before and did not end well so please keep it respectful
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    Smart Canuck Bronwen's Avatar
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    I'm all for helping people when they are having hard times. If someone is down & out and they really need it, I totally agree that a temporary helping hand is needed and should be given. However, I do think welfare should be monitored alot better than what it is. I like the debit card that was mentioned above. Rent paid directly to the land lord also is a good suggestion. The money from taxpayers should be used to cover rent, food, school supplies for children, sensible priced clothing, electricity, heat and some mode of transportation (public transport or a sensible vehicle if in an area there isn't public transport). If they want cigarettes, liquor, drugs, iphones, gel nails and designer clothes, that shouldn't be paid for by tax dollars. That should come from money that they earn themselves.
    Honestly, I agree with the debit card idea. It would be a good way to deter people from spending on pointless stuff that hard working people often can't even afford (like the nails and stuff you mentioned). What bothers me is those people who were born into families like this, often surrounded by abuse and of course drugs and alcohol. They were given an uphill battle to begin with. I guess I would just like to see that with the money that is taken away from the people who abuse it, it's put back into them in a more controlled manner. Anything from seeking out psychological help for them to basic instruction on how to apply to jobs, do certain jobs, pay bills, etc. Sadly, some people were never taught this basic style of living.

    I hope no one thinks I'm attacking their point of view; we are all entitled to our own opinion and that's what makes the world go round Obviously no one is going to be on the fence about this issue; it's a pretty hot topic
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  6. #36
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    Interesting and touchy subject indeed. A subject like this will always be volatile as the heart of the matter on the opinions centres around values. And often when people disagree around values (whatever the value may be) it can get emotional.

    My perspective about assistance changed somewhat a number of years ago when a very good friend had to go on Ontario Works. Some really crappy stuff happened in her life and she was left with no other option. As we have been very close friends since elementary school, she shared lots with me that I wouldn't have known otherwise.

    I found out that any savings she had (which was very minimal at that point) had to be depleted before she could receive assistance. Also, any assets she had, like her vaccuum cleaner, affected what she would receive. The amount she received each month didn't cover rent and food. Her apartment was pretty crappy and at one point had a leaky roof, so she was able to negotiate with her landlord to reduce her rent so that she didn't have to move. Her mom couldn't help her financially, or her monthly amount would go down. She was unable to work as she was not well. In the end, she was able to get off Ontario Works because she was able to get disability instead. But it was hard to accomplish that and required so much effort and follow up on her part that she could barely manage because she was not well. Eventually she went back to school to become a teacher. Previously she had been a nurse.

    Being on the system was really hard for my friend. She felt the system was dehumanizing, hard to get out of and that judgements were being made, even by the people that were working for the system. It's not somewhere that she ever wants to be again.

    One of the challenges that some have in getting off assistance is that there seems to be very little way for people to gather the resources they need to get off assistance. Anything extra they have, if they report it as they are supposed to do, reduces the payments they receive. So if your payments barely cover necessities like food and shelter, and you can't accumulate anything, how do you get off if for some legitimate reason you are unable to work? That part was eye opening for me.

    I also dealt with people who were on Ontario Works in a previous job. There are placement options for people so that they can get some experience in a workplace and earn a bit more each month by working a certain number of hours each week. I had several people in these types of placements over a 5 year period. They were good people who were working hard and trying hard. And some of them were really struggling to be able to get themselves to work. Some were dealing with issues that were complex and beyond their abilities to deal with, and they did not have mental health resources at their disposal. And if they couldn't get themselves in to work, they didn't earn that extra $100 or so each month. I had to sign all their paperwork to show that they really were at work in order for them to get that extra.

    I'm not naive enough to think that there is no abuse of the system. Every system has abuse. But I'm grateful to not have to use the system myself. And I understand that even with good decisions, some things in life are beyond our control and one can find oneself somewhere she didn't plan to be. And I hope to have compassion for people and not be judgemental. Because it is easy for me to be judgemental.
    Last edited by super807; Thu, Sep 13th, 2012 at 02:49 PM. Reason: typos
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    Super Saver JennyFromTheRock's Avatar
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    This is an article I read a few years ago that stuck with me, its American, but still very relevant.

    This was written by Alfred W. Evans, a retired Army sergeant from Gatesville, Texas. It's his future he worried about and this is how he feels about the social welfare big government state that he's being forced to live in! These solutions are just common sense in his opinion.

    This was in the Waco Tribune Herald, Waco , TX Nov 18, 2010


    "Put me in charge . . .


    Put me in charge of food stamps. I'd get rid of Lone Star cards; no cash for Ding Dongs or Ho Ho's, just money for 50-pound bags of rice and beans, blocks of cheese and all the powdered milk you can haul away. If you want steak and frozen pizza, then get a job.

    Put me in charge of Medicaid. The first thing I'd do is to get women Norplant birth control implants or tubal ligations. Then, we'll test recipients for drugs, alcohol, and nicotine and document all tattoos and piercings. If you want to reproduce or use drugs, alcohol, smoke or get tats and piercings, then get a job.

    Put me in charge of government housing. Ever live in a military barracks? You will maintain our property in a clean and good state of repair. Your "home" will be subject to inspections anytime and possessions will be inventoried. If you want a plasma TV or Xbox 360, then get a job and your own place.

    In addition, you will either present a check stub from a job each week or you will report to a "government" job. It may be cleaning the roadways of trash, painting and repairing public housing, whatever we find for you. We will sell your 22 inch rims and low profile tires and your blasting stereo and speakers and put that money toward the “common good..”

    Before you write that I've violated someone's rights, realize that all of the above is voluntary. If you want our money, accept our rules.. Before you say that this would be "demeaning" and ruin their "self esteem," consider that it wasn't that long ago that taking someone else's money for doing absolutely nothing was demeaning and lowered self esteem.

    If we are expected to pay for other people's mistakes we should at least attempt to make them learn from their bad choices. The current system rewards them for continuing to make bad choices.

    AND, While you are on Gov’t subsistence, you no longer can VOTE! Yes that is correct. For you to vote would be a conflict of interest as you would clearly be voting for a "pro-welfare" government. You will voluntarily remove yourself from voting while you are receiving a Gov’t welfare check. If you want to vote, then get a job."
    Last edited by JennyFromTheRock; Thu, Sep 13th, 2012 at 02:47 PM.
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  8. #38
    Smart Canuck Bronwen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by super807 View Post
    Interesting and touchy subject indeed. A subject like this will always be volatile as the heart of the matter on the opinions centres around values. And often when people disagree around values (whatever the value may be) it can get emotional.

    My perspective about assistance changed somewhat a number of years ago when a very good friend had to go on Ontario Works. Some really crappy stuff happened in her life and she was left with no other option. As we have been very close friends since elementary school, she shared lots with me that I wouldn't have known otherwise.

    I found out that any savings she had (which was very minimal at that point) had to be depleted before she could receive assistance. Also, any assets she had, like her vaccuum cleaner, affected what she would receive. The amount she received each month didn't cover rent and food. Her apartment was pretty crappy and at one point had a leaky roof, so she was able to negotiate with her landlord to reduce her rent so that she didn't have to move. Her mom couldn't help her financially, or her monthly amount would go down. She was unable to work as she was not well. In the end, she was able to get off Ontario Works because she was able to get disability instead. But it was hard to accomplish that and required so much effort and follow up on her part that she could barely manage because she was not well. Eventually she went back to school to become a teacher. Previously she had been a nurse.

    Being on the system was really hard for my friend. She felt the system was dehumanizing, hard to get out of and that judgements were being made, even by the people that were working for the system. It's not somewhere that she ever wants to be again.

    One of the challenges that some have in getting off assistance is that there seems to be very little way for people to gather the resources they need to get off assistance. Anything extra they have, if they report it as they are supposed to do, reduces the payments they receive. So if your payments barely cover necessities like food and shelter, and you can't accumulate anything, how do you get off if for some legitimate reason you are unable to work? That part was eye opening for me.

    I also dealt with people who were on Ontario Works in a previous job. There are placement options for people so that they can get some experience in a workplace and earn a bit more each month by working a certain number of hours each week. I had several people in these types of placements over a 5 year period. They were good people who were working hard and trying hard. And some of them were really struggling to be able to get themselves to work. Some were dealing with issues that were complex and beyond their abilities to deal with, and they did not have mental health resources at their disposal. And if they couldn't get themselves in to work, they didn't earn that extra $100 or so each month. I had to sign all their paperwork to show that they really were at work in order for them to get that extra.

    I'm not naive enough to think that there is no abuse of the system. Every system has abuse. But I'm grateful to not have to use the system myself. And I understand that even with good decisions, so things in life are beyond our control and one can find oneself somewhere she didn't plan to be. And I hope to have compassion for people and not be judgemental. Because it is easy for me to be judgemental.
    So well put, thanks for articulating it so well; something I don't do such a good job of
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    The ONLY Diva of SC! saveadollardiva's Avatar
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    First off, about people who have been sexual assulted and them not being able to find a job because of what they went through: Does it happen: Yes, BUT is it a reason not to get a job and support yourself and live off of others NO. People go through alot in their lives, but they get back up and get their lives back together. Just because something bad happens to you does not mean you stop living. Plain and simple, if you buy stuff you don't need instead of using for what you really need, than you should not get assistance period.
    Last edited by saveadollardiva; Thu, Sep 13th, 2012 at 03:38 PM.
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    The ONLY Diva of SC! saveadollardiva's Avatar
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    also, Bronwen, JennyfromtheRock has the right to her thoughts and views just like you. You are the one that started the thread. Not everyone is going to agree. You should not get upset because someone has a different view than you. We are all equal in our thoughts and views.
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  11. #41
    Smart Canuck Bronwen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saveadollardiva View Post
    also, Bronwen, JennyfromtheRock has the right to her thoughts and views just like you. You are the one that started the thread. Not everyone is going to agree. You should not get upset because someone has a different view than you. We are all equal in our thoughts and views.
    As I have stated many times without getting upset....?
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    The ONLY Diva of SC! saveadollardiva's Avatar
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    No one is getting upset, but by you attacking people because they don't agree with you is wrong. All I am saying is everyong is equal.

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    Smart Canuck Bronwen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saveadollardiva View Post
    No one is getting upset, but by you attacking people because they don't agree with you is wrong. All I am saying is everyong is equal.
    Again, I think you should read the entire thread. Having a colorful debate is a lot different than attacking people which I do not believe anyone has done in this thread up until now...
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    ummm...how did this post go from:

    I'm sure some of you have seen this pic floating around fb. I can't seem to attach it to this post using my phone but it says something along the lines of, 'If you can afford cigarettes, booze, drugs etc hen you don't need welfare or food stamps'

    (which i totally agree with. If you are on assistance you shouldn't be spending it on booze, cigarettes & drugs)

    to calling people ignorant for their beliefs???




    Last edited by Sunshyne1; Thu, Sep 13th, 2012 at 03:46 PM.

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    I'd thought I'd offer some price tags on the cost of addiction to this conversation, gleaned from volunteering with the down and out here in town.

    Keep in mind here in Ontario, social assistance is around $600 (OW) to $1000 (ODSP) max for a single recipient.

    Alcohol habit: 24 cans of Carling beer per day x 30 days = $1000
    Pot habit: 1/8 oz (about 7 "joints") per day x 30 days = $1000
    Oxycodone (narcotic) habit: 80 mg x 30 days $= 2500
    Smoking habit: pack a day habit reservation cigarettes x 30 days = $40

    Clearly the cost of these addictions are greater than the income gained on social assistance. Except for smoking - that's cheap, God bless the indians. The advantage of having people on social assistance while addicted is that they are not out there in the community stealing everything that is not nailed down to sell to support their drug habits, or they are taking up fewer illegal activities (selling drugs, prostitution, breeding and selling "attack dogs", selling prescriptions, etc) to cover the costs of their addictions. When I was volunteering one guy on ODSP told me he was torn because he could make his entire ODSP allowance by selling 13 80mg oxycodone pills on the street ($1040 @ $80/pill) but he needed the things to manage his pain. You can see where this is going...get a second prescription and double your standard of living. (The government in Ontario is currently making changes to their pharmacy computer system standards prevent this from happening). But as for crime, collecting "scrap" copper and brass and so forth (that may still be in use by someone else) you can just imagine the damage that can be caused by one addict alone in a community when copper is at $1.80/lb.

    I had never volunteered in a setting like this before I was 35 and the whole thing blew my mind. If you want to solve the world's problems, go volunteer, get a does of reality and see how difficult it is to make change in people's lives.

    Many addicts are on the slow suicide plan. They've had some sort of crazy traumatic upbringing, limited education, and turned to drugs or alcohol to get the edge off. Quitting the alcohol/drugs means bringing on crippling addiction-based depression and makes no change in the rest of their rotten lives...everything out there they were trying to avoid through drugs and alcohol is still there or still happening. For this reason a lot of addicts would prefer to remain addicted and let their drug of choice kill them slowly/accidentally/randomly. You can tell them their drug is killing them, show them the signs and they will say good, party hardy, bring it on.

    As for spending their money sensibly, many people have never had a role model, complete education, or lack the mental faculties to take this task on. Very very often, when I heard low people describing a "nice life" it included having the money to let their kids eat fast food for lunch and dinner every day. Now people in the middle class would recoil at that idea, just on the basis of what a nutritional disaster, or how non-gourmet that would be, but to the low income person it can represent freedom from the drudgery of trying to prepare something daily, good value, and happy kids and no more, certainly nothing bad.

    Imagine that your childhood was so full of turmoil that you missed a lot of school and dropped out before you were a teenager. What kind of adult would you be? Imagine drawing from that limited education and trying to run a middle class style household (sanitation, nutrition, savings, investments, etc.) based on what you knew at 12. Some people do have a rough enough start that if they do recover from it, it may only be in the later years of their lives. They may be on welfare for years but that is the time it takes to recover from their traumas and learn the life skills they need to break free of the system.

    As for people abusing the system....there are a quarter of a million social assistance recipients in Ontario alone, and I doubt the government would let things go to the point that at least 125,001 of them, the majority, are abusing the system. The number of people abusing the system is practically a lot lower than that lol

    Quote Originally Posted by JennyFromTheRock View Post
    I think if you can afford to smoke, drink or do drugs you shouldn't be entitled to welfare.
    I used to think this but now I figure the criminal damage an addict can do to a community is greater than the cost of supporting their addiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by JennyFromTheRock View Post
    I know for a fact that many go to the doctor with fake illnesses to get narcotic drugs that they then sell for a profit.
    Yep, and I have seen people with legitimate illnesses do this too. In Ontario they are working to better track narcotics through the phamacy systems as this has been identified as a real problem. When narcotics sell on the street for $1/mg, it's too easy for some people.

    Quote Originally Posted by JennyFromTheRock View Post
    I am also a huge supporter of "work for your welfare" for people who have been on long term because "they can't find jobs". there are families back home where whole generations of people have been on welfare, where your 18th birthday is a "right of passage" to get your very own welfare cheque. Its very sad that people choose to live that way.
    Actually you can get OW at 16...and honestly these households can be so full of turmoil and addiction and lack of education that they kids are off to a very rough start and often just can't do better (but need to escape the situation).

    Quote Originally Posted by JennyFromTheRock View Post
    I think rent should be given directly to the landlord from welfare rather then to the client.
    In ontario both OW and ODSP offer direct deposit of rent and utility bills to the landlord/utility, if the recipient opts for it. So if you are renting to a social assistance recipient here, you can ask them to set up the direct payment through Social Services to you and they will never even touch that money.

    Quote Originally Posted by JennyFromTheRock View Post
    I'm all for food stamps or giving out foods like rice, pasta beans and vegetables,
    But for this you need a real kitchen stocked with pots and pans and all that kind of equipment, not the bar fridge and hot plate you get in a $400/month rooming house that you can afford on assistance. Plus you need to know how to cook, and have the mobility to get your supplies and have enough knowledge about nutrition to want to eat this kind of stuff over faster, easier processed foods. Plus people of all types prefer the comfort foods that they knew growing up. It would be fabulous if we all ate healthy, preventative diets but to some, these meals would be foreign and unpalatable if mom always included chips or fries with a bologna sandwich, and a Pepsi. It is a huge battle to get people off of processed foods diets, poor or not. I would not exclusively pick on the poor to eat better because they may be unable to afford a kitchen setup and be without cooking skills. The middle class does not often eat what is good for them either, and they don't face any of the barriers the poor do.

    Quote Originally Posted by JennyFromTheRock View Post
    In a life style where their rent is paid, food is given to them and clothes are put on their back they don't need money.
    Without money, can you get on a bus? Pay a library fine? Get to know your local shopkeepers? Be part of the community? You need to have at least a couple bucks in your pocket to be economically engaged in your community. Denying people cash shuts them out of the community, who they come to see as the enemy that is to be attacked and stolen from.

    Quote Originally Posted by JennyFromTheRock View Post
    If they have so much time on their hands that they need "spending money" they have time to get a job. We pay $60,000 in taxes a year, enough to support 3 families on welfare meanwhile we still have to mow our own lawn.
    So according to the Ernst and Young tax calulator for Alberta, you're raking in $190k a year gross and need to have the 10 single welfare recipients you support in your $60k taxes come by and do the landscaping for you? Or what are you saying. If I were in that situation I would be glad for what I had, not calculating how many people's a$$es I owned lol

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