Police brutality? Toronto police gun happy? Disgusting

[lghend]

Police are criticized for using tasers. If someone was aggressively coming at me with a knife, no matter how small, I think I'd do whatever I had to, to protect myself. That's gotta be a tense and scary situation for anyone. Also, police are not armed with tasers automatically anymore since the big scandal at the airport.

[lessthannat]

Before we judge let's wait for all the facts to come out in this case.

I am always annoyed by all the people who jump at the chance to criticize our police force any chance they get. Let's not forget their job is to make the streets safe for people like you and me, they do this by putting their lives on the line everyday. We don't know what happened. Fact of the matter is if someone came at me with a knife, damn right I would defend myself

[trishka]

I usually try to stay away from discussions like this because I can get very emotional about these things because my best friend and a couple of my other friends are cops. First off, it is no doubt sad and tragic that an 18 year old was killed. My condolences to the family and I feel for them but there are so many issues with the way the whole situation is being portrayed in the media.

NB: When I say 'people' I don't necessarily mean people solely on this board but others who have commented on online articles I've read.

I've noticed that many people are jumping to conclusions and pre-judging the officer. He's already guilty in the eyes of the public. People are also saying what the police could have and should have done. Problem is, like vesper said, they weren't there. Of course there are many things the police could have done, but there's a reason why hindsight is 20/20. Locking the doors could have only proved to aggravate him more. Cornered people are the most dangerous. They know there is no escape which makes them more vulnerable. Tear gas and pepper spray are not always effective and someone who is under the influence of drugs may become more aggravated. I'm not sure if he was under the influence of drugs but I'm sure the officers weren't sure about this either. Many of the options people are laying out are options that involve tactical teams or are just no plausible. It has been mentioned before but police cannot simply shoot someone in the leg to immobilize them. The risk to the public is far too great. Someone suggested that the police shoot the knife out of his hand. Unless you’re a trained sniper that isn’t going to happen. And few could probably shoot someone in the leg without the potential of a stray bullet. They are trained to aim for the largest target, the chest. Another suggested hand to hand combat, obviously not realising that it would have been hand to knife combat.

Perception of a situation is a major factor in any case. We see this video and think that there was no danger to the officers or other people, but we weren't the ones standing there in front of someone with a knife. Vesper pointed out that it is not clear whether he had other weapons and that plays a huge part too. Maybe he had a gun or another knife or other weapons, we don't know. Police have to act on information they do know and have to make decisions based on many unknowns.

It also seems to be lost that this 18 year old that is being portrayed as an angel had a knife. He had a weapon. He didn't listen to numerous police requests to put it down. He was warned several times. It's not like the police shot him and he was unarmed. If he hadn't been doing what he was doing the cops wouldn't have even been there. The police were responding to a threat to public safety.

Mental illness is a whole other issue. Patrol officers are not fully trained in how to recognize and respond to people with mental illness. It is also sometimes difficult to determine if there is mental illness and what type. Someone with schizophrenia needs to be dealt with differently than someone who is bi-polar. For officers to better deal with people with mental illness, management and the Chief need to change policies and train officers.

I think one of the main things people over look is that police officers are also human. They too have loved ones. Someone said something about thinking about how we'd feel if this happened to someone we loved or cared about. Well, the police officers have mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, wives, husbands, children and friends. Maybe it’s because of my best friend but you also have to think, "What if they didn't shoot?" What if they didn't shoot and that knife gets plunged into an officers neck. Or he managed to get off the bus and attack a civilian? There are so many "what ifs?" when being a cop and to outright and automatically judge someone who goes to work every day and puts their life at risk so you can feel safer is just … I don’t even know. I just hope they never need a police officer to put their life on the line to protect them.

I will wait for the SIU report before I make any conclusions. 9 bullets may be excessive but maybe after we can't see him anymore he still had the knife or was still a threat. We don't know.

And it has to be said that not every cop is a power hungry cop. I think it's safe to say that more than 99% of police officers hope to retire never having to pull the trigger.

P.S. Sorry for the novella.

[trishka]

I also want to add that knives are actually incredibly dangerous and potentially more of a threat. Not everyone knows how to handle a gun, nevermind shooting one with any type of accuracy. Knives really take no skill to use. It has also been determined that on average it takes a person 1.5 seconds to cross 21 feet which would put someone in stabbing distance. Sgt. Tueller of Salt Lake City simulated scenarios with people with knives and the danger they posed. In the time it takes to drawn and fire two shots with accuracy, the person with the knife is already within stabbing distance. It is widely accepted by police services around the world and officers are trained based on what Sgt. Tueller determined.

I know in this case the weapons were already drawn and he would have had to go down steps but hopefully this can help people understand, even just a little bit, why he did actually pose a threat and it wasn't "just a knife."

[MillieH]

I know in this case the weapons were already drawn and he would have had to go down steps but hopefully this can help people understand, even just a little bit, why he did actually pose a threat and it wasn't "just a knife."

I totally understand that someone who pulls a knife and orders everyone off a bus creates a volatile situation. I just don't understand why the way to handle it is fire off 9 rounds and then taser him. Based on what Sgt Tueller determined, he could have been stopped prior to reaching stabbing distance. Perhaps taser first and then shoot if he moved toward them in any way. I don't believe that the police got up and thought I'm going to kill someone today.. I do think, something is wrong in how that was handled. There is something wrong in how they are trained to handle a crisis situation or someone blew it.. Killing someone shouldnt be the first choice unless the police or other citizens are at immediate risk of being injured.

[dariusz8]

Heres another closer up video caught on security camera that's much clearer on the front of the bus where the action was --> Closer up security camera catch the incident -> http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/20...stigation.html


Still think this could have ended differently...

[xox2010]

Just to touch on the mental illness aspect of this. (I am not saying that the 18 yr old in question was mentally ill, I'm just going to say how I feel about police dealing with mental patients). I have a close family member who was diagnosed as having a psychotic episode late last year, and the police were involved in order to get her to go to a hospital. Some of the police were very compassionate and understanding, while 1 in particularly clearly felt that it was a waste of his time. Now, the only reason I say this, is that they do need more training in order to deal with mentally ill patients (as per trishka's post). It's a crucial step in order to avoid violent situations.

[lessthannat]

Police officers are not doctors. Being mentally ill is not an excuse to act violently in public and endanger the lives of officers & civilians. While I do agree that there should be training for officers on how they can deal with mentally ill individuals.
However short of having a sign on their head stating I am mentally ill or having prior knowledge, how is an officer supposed to know? Not all mental illness is easily identifiable

Until you are in the shoes of an officer, I do not believe it is your place to judge on how they 'should' have acted or what they 'could' have done. That's not your job.

[dariusz8]

Police officers are not doctors. Being mentally ill is not an excuse to act violently in public and endanger the lives of officers & civilians. While I do agree that there should be training for officers on how they can deal with mentally ill individuals.
However short of having a sign on their head stating I am mentally ill or having prior knowledge, how is an officer supposed to know? Not all mental illness is easily identifiable

Until you are in the shoes of an officer, I do not believe it is your place to judge on how they 'should' have acted or what they 'could' have done. That's not your job.

Obviously you don't understand mental illness very well... People dealing with mental illness often don't understand how to control emotions or actions sometime. You say you can't judge a cop until in their place... why not put yourself in place of someone with mental illness?

[trishka]

I just don't understand why the way to handle it is fire off 9 rounds and then taser him.

Which is why we need to wait for the SIU investigation. They will determine whether it was the way or it was not the way to handle it.

[dariusz8]

Agree, Either way I am sure some recommendations will be made by the SIU on how to deal with similar situations in the future. Don't get me wrong its not that I don't like cops... but like anywhere you have the good and the bad. Many may consider a cop or firefighter as hero... but I unfortunately don't. A paid service person has decided to do just what they sign up for. A hero to me is someone out of the blue who reacts to a certain situation to benefit the safety, well being of someone without any compensation.

[vesper]

he could have been stopped prior to reaching stabbing distance. Perhaps taser first and then shoot if he moved toward them in any way. I don't believe that the police got up and thought I'm going to kill someone today.. I do think, something is wrong in how that was handled. There is something wrong in how they are trained to handle a crisis situation or someone blew it.. Killing someone shouldnt be the first choice unless the police or other citizens are at immediate risk of being injured.

You don't taser a person who is commited to harming you with a weapon from close range. In this situation, once the offender choose to initiate contact with the officer with his knife in his hand, shooting him was the correct call.

No one deals with as many mentally ill people at there worst then police. THey are trained, they are experienced. This is why most mentally ill people who are violent end up in custody not a body bag.

Thus far, I have not read anything at all that this officer could have done differently, except contain the bus, rather than enter it. However, I am suspecting the officers were trained to sweep the bus for victims and other weapons.

Not a single person who watched this video was able to determine who else was on the bus, what weapons the offender was holding, what the offender was communicating to the officers, and so it not unexpected the respnding officers had not determined any of that either.

[lessthannat]

Perhaps you are the one who is not familiar with mental illness
There are varying degree's of mental illness, some easy to recognize, many not. This is not something you can put all under one category.

I actually know a few people with different types of mental illnesses, and without having knowledge of their situation, I personally would not know that they are dealing with that type of illness. Kind of like me going to the hospital, not telling them I'm allergic to penicillin and them treating me with a penicillin based medication, some things you just can't tell by looking at a person.

Obviously you don't understand mental illness very well... People dealing with mental illness often don't understand how to control emotions or actions sometime. You say you can't judge a cop until in their place... why not put yourself in place of someone with mental illness?

[SarahS83]

Do we know he didn't say "I have a bomb, I'll blow everyone up"?

I'm not saying he did or didn't I'm not defending the actions of anyone. We just need all the facts before we judge.

[vesper]

Do we know he didn't say "I have a bomb, I'll blow everyone up"?

I'm not saying he did or didn't I'm not defending the actions of anyone. We just need all the facts before we judge.

That is why the video and audio from the bus itself will be helpful. If he did make any threat like that, had a backpack or something similar, training pretty much narrows the range of options, and this man sealed his fate.