i dont understand how "being alive" is arbitrary. and if surviving on ones own is essential then i guess we should do away with assisted breathing? if you cant breathe on your own then you have no right to live?
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"Being alive" isn't where you set your standard; the fact that at day 21 there is no heartbeat and at day 22 there is makes no difference. The fetus is just as alive on day 21 as on day 22. That's why I referred to it as arbitrary.
I never insisted that my demarcation point was perfect, only that it made sense to me. My argument never included anything like the statement that a person who cannot survive without assistance has no right to live. That's an absurd misrepresentation of my position. My reason for drawing the line where I did is that the fetus, upon reaching viability outside the womb, has a right to life more compelling than the mother's right to terminate the pregnancy. (This point occurs generally around 23 or 24 weeks, or so I've been reading.)
in fact my personal opinion is that at conception there is life and the right to live, but i picked day 22 because it was scientific and we are not supposed to bring morals and religion in to it. when you said "if the fetus has a reasonable chance of surviving outside of the mother's body, then that's the line in the sand that should not be crossed" that really does sound like the criteria is surviving on ones own, so forgive me for misunderstanding you.
I am sorry that the results of this pole will stop you from being a member.
I was raised to believe that everyone had a right to an opinion (my father fought in a war to ensure this right) and the fact that others opinions do not always jive with mine would never have me taking my toys and leaving the sandbox.
I think it is a wonderful thing that we live in a country where we can all have our own opinions and not be afraid to voice them without fear of retribution.
Abortion is a very emotional issue for many and most have strong feelings no matter which side of the fence they sit on...but I believe that unless you are the one who is really faced w/ this chose, it is easy to sit here at your keyboard and say what you would do and why...
I don't understand...
I mean, it makes me feel saddened that you feel that having a differing opinion makes you unwelcome somehow. Or that you can't be on this board anymore because of discussions you don't agree with.
What I don't understand is why someone would feel the need to leave because their opinion is different. For example, your opinion on this matter is very different from mine but I enjoy reading what you have to say about it. I think it's a tribute to a strong personality that you are the only one to stand up and say your peace about it. (As you said, 9 picked 'murder' but only you said something.) You most definately should not let somone or something make you feel as though your opinions should be kept silent.
I for one hope you change your mind and stick around; even if that means staying away from threads where your opinion would be interesting to read.
:flowers:
would seeing these pics change your mind about abortion?
www.priestsforlife.org/images
i still think whether or not to abort an unborn child depends on the circumstances. just that after seeing some real crushed pieces of fetal hands and feet, i'm seeing certain things differently. now even seeing a baby in a stroller reminds me of those images.
No they wouldn't...although the shock value of these pictures may make some people think a little harder on this topic it is one that I have already had to think long and hard about.
I have seen my daughters ultrasounds and I know how the fetus develops..I have seen the tiny heart beating and seen it sucking it's thumb...so you have not shown me anything I have not already seen.
Although abortion is not for me personally I still feel that we do not have a right to choose what it right for someone else. We do not know what the reasons are that they have chosen abortion and we are not the one in their situation. Unless you have been faced with this very tough decision it is easy to sit back and say that you would never have one..but I have been the person who has had to make the decision and both choses were equally hard.
My sister chose not to have an abortion and 10 days after having the baby she died leaving two very young children without a mother and the oldest one who was only 4 without either parents his father having died 6 weeks before he was born.
before we condemn others for what they do we need all the fact not just graphic pictures.
no one is condemning anybody here. and besides, not all things can be answered with a simple 'agree' or a 'disagree.'
Being adopted it's always been a very touchy subject with me, my biological mother was only 15 when she got pregnant with me and it probably would have been easier to abort me but she choose not to and here I am today, that being said I personally would never have an abortion but I still feel we all have to right to say what happens with our bodies so for that reason I can't speak out against it.
Isn't it a great country and society that we live in where this conversation can occur. It is a wonderful thing to be able to have an opinion.
I will say only this further:
I have an opinion, you have an opinion, if you listen to mine, I'll listen to yours. In the end we may have to agree to disagree, but I would hope that I am not judged by my opinion on one matter.
I have seen the images that link takes you to. I refuse to open the link since I know what will flash before my eyes.
If I was to protest about driving cars for whatever reason like how terrible they are to the environment or how dangerous they can be to drive. If I were to protest with signs on busy streets graphic images of car accident victims.. how long do you think it'd be before I was taken down?
I understand they feel the need to protest I suppose... but when I'm driving my children out Saturday shopping and all of a sudden I have to scream for them to look at the floor because there are images of dead babies everywhere... it does tend to piss me off a lot.
I am against abortion.
However, rather than repeat or disagree with all of the opinions here, I have a different beef that I'd like to voice.
I think everyone here who is pro-choice (woman's choice, not baby's) will agree that it should be the woman's decision.
However, because it is such a sensitive topic, many people avoid discussing their opinions, and conversely, as a society, we often avoid discussing abortion at all.
Women facing this situation therefore go into their doctor's office, or an abortion resource centre, and get ONLY their opinion regarding what abortion is, and whether or not she should get one. I really think that this is hardly an informed decision.
Many times people say "you can always have children later, when the time is right" but that is also not true. We may be able to choose to not have a baby, but we don't all get to choose when and if we will get pregnant when we try. Women should know that there reproductive system can start to slow down in their late 20's, meaning that for some women, the child they abort may very well be their only biological child. Wether this affects a woman's decision is her own choice, but she should know it.
An unwanted or unplanned pregnancy hurts. knowing that health issues will affect you or your baby hurts.
But abortion hurts, too. It's not a fun thing to do on a wednesday. "hmm, maybe I'll have a picnic, go to the movies, or have an abortion..." Women don't want to be in this situation. It sucks, I understand that. But abortion sucks, too. It doesn't erase the fact that you were pregnant. It's not a "rewind" button, that brings you back to before things happen. It doesn't UNrape you. I really think as a society, we have a responsibility to ensure that women understand exactly what they are getting into before they make any decision.
It bothers me that women who seek abortion counselling a rushed into a hasty desicion. Although I can understand the counsellor or doctor's point that it carries less risk the earlier that it is done. So I guess the best option is to keep an open dialogue. Maybe if women and girls know all the facts because people talk about it, they can form their own opinions, and truly make their own choices.
I hope people read this thread, I hope they find some interesting opinions, and that they think about how they feel, and how they would want to choose.
Because no matter what, they are the ones who have to live with their decisions.
One thing about this issue besides the pics that are shown on the side of streets sometimes is recently (2 months ago actually) there wwas a rally here where both sides there and what upset me was the speaker for the pro-life movement was a man.
And I think that upset me was I kept thinking who is he to tell me what to do with my body as he has no clue or right to dictate to me as he is a man.
If there is a pregancy and man can leave and not take part in the responsiblity of going through the pregancy or child rearing for that matter why can't a woman have the same option??
someone said to me if your mom had an abortion you wouldn't be here, that's true I wouldn't be here but how would I know if I didn't exist....so I believe that question is irrelevant..
Just my thought and I realize this is a diffcult topic to dicuss.