Rant to Mcgunity gov't

[Angelos170]

Jbird: In my living memory, I can't even begin to remember when the last time teachers striked in my area; certainly not in my lifetime.

You must be quite young then because I remember all elementary teacher's going on strike in 1997 for a week or two as I recall. And then college teachers went on strike in 2006ish I believe it was.

I think FDK when you are three years old is a bit much. However, FDK when you are 5 is completely fine. I went through FDK and loved it. We even had nap time--grab a mat and the teacher would turn off the lights/close the curtains for an hour every day.

[benmackmom]

[QUOTE=kw01ai;4986630]Perhaps it is helpful to note that we are ALL tax payers and we all care what happens to our money (or should). Has anyone read the book "If the world were a village?" Here is a Youtube video of something similar. It is one of those little reminders for me of how much we have in the Western world.

Until governments learn how to balance budgets (and even after) such arguments will ensue.
Any more opinions on Ontario's FDK?


I have to respectfully disagree. We are not ALL taxpayers. Anyone employed in the public sector (i.e. teachers, police officers, municipal employees, nurses, etc). is not taxpayers.

Let me explain. ALL of these people do important work, but they all are paid from government coffers. Money goes into government coffers from taxpayers. While taxes are deducted from public sector employees, they really are only putting tax money they earned back into the pot.

The problem with a growing public sector is that we have to add "new" tax dollars to the coffers to afford the growth (whether in salaries or benefits). The only way to add new tax dollars to the coffers is to add new dollars from the PRIVATE sector (people who work for private corporations or through corporate taxes).

Take "my village" of 5 (me, my husband, my sister, my BIL and my SIL). Of the 5 of us, three are public employees (a teacher, a police officer and a hospital worker). In our village the 3 who are public employees earn money from government coffers (each makes close to $100K...yes that's true, I do all of their income taxes for them). Their salaries come from government coffers and a percentage of that goes back into those coffers in the form of taxes. The other 2 in our village (me and my husband) work for private companies. Our salaries come from the money our companies earn through the goods and services that are sold. We then put a percentage into the government coffers in the form of taxes. Each time that the public sector employees ask for more (or in some cases are not willing to give up something) they are basically saying to the private sector, work harder, earn more and pay more taxes so that we can have more.

Sorry for the long post, it is a statement saying we are ALL taxpayers really hits a sore spot with me. We are all CITIZENS in a village and should care about how our wants affect others.

[Small Town Couponer]

[QUOTE=benmackmom;5007545]

Perhaps it is helpful to note that we are ALL tax payers and we all care what happens to our money (or should). Has anyone read the book "If the world were a village?" Here is a Youtube video of something similar. It is one of those little reminders for me of how much we have in the Western world.

Until governments learn how to balance budgets (and even after) such arguments will ensue.
Any more opinions on Ontario's FDK?


I have to respectfully disagree. We are not ALL taxpayers. Anyone employed in the public sector (i.e. teachers, police officers, municipal employees, nurses, etc). is not taxpayers.

Let me explain. ALL of these people do important work, but they all are paid from government coffers. Money goes into government coffers from taxpayers. While taxes are deducted from public sector employees, they really are only putting tax money they earned back into the pot.

The problem with a growing public sector is that we have to add "new" tax dollars to the coffers to afford the growth (whether in salaries or benefits). The only way to add new tax dollars to the coffers is to add new dollars from the PRIVATE sector (people who work for private corporations or through corporate taxes).

Take "my village" of 5 (me, my husband, my sister, my BIL and my SIL). Of the 5 of us, three are public employees (a teacher, a police officer and a hospital worker). In our village the 3 who are public employees earn money from government coffers (each makes close to $100K...yes that's true, I do all of their income taxes for them). Their salaries come from government coffers and a percentage of that goes back into those coffers in the form of taxes. The other 2 in our village (me and my husband) work for private companies. Our salaries come from the money our companies earn through the goods and services that are sold. We then put a percentage into the government coffers in the form of taxes. Each time that the public sector employees ask for more (or in some cases are not willing to give up something) they are basically saying to the private sector, work harder, earn more and pay more taxes so that we can have more.

Sorry for the long post, it is a statement saying we are ALL taxpayers really hits a sore spot with me. We are all CITIZENS in a village and should care about how our wants affect others.

I have to disagree. Last time I checked I have taxes come off on my pay check. As well I am paying property tax and tax every time I go to the store etc. So to say we are not taxpayers is offensive.

We ALL pay taxes in order to have society run. I am a public sector worker but when taxes go up its not just the private sector that has that happen, its all of us. When taxes are taken off I don’t get a magical pay cheque later with all the taxes back to me. I am so sick of hearing arguments between public vs. private sector. If the public sector is so great why aren’t those complaining getting a job within it?

Unfortunately we are ALL in the same boat with the mess the McGuinty government has created. If taxes go up it goes up for EVERYONE.

[leavitts77]

people voted for this government so we all have to live with it it sucks but hey wasnt mcnugget the front guy leading the teachers back when they were out on strike when i was in high school ? People will always vote who they see on TV ads or signs all the time as the money wins . Thats the way it is and they know it

[benmackmom]

[QUOTE=Small Town Couponer;5007799]

I have to disagree. Last time I checked I have taxes come off on my pay check. As well I am paying property tax and tax every time I go to the store etc. So to say we are not taxpayers is offensive.

We ALL pay taxes in order to have society run. I am a public sector worker but when taxes go up its not just the private sector that has that happen, its all of us. When taxes are taken off I don’t get a magical pay cheque later with all the taxes back to me. I am so sick of hearing arguments between public vs. private sector. If the public sector is so great why aren’t those complaining getting a job within it?

Unfortunately we are ALL in the same boat with the mess the McGuinty government has created. If taxes go up it goes up for EVERYONE.

By all means, disagree. That doesn't mean it isn't a fact. Yes, you have taxes come off your cheque...I never said you didn't. Yes, you pay property taxes and sales taxes. But where does the money come from in the first place to pay you.....from TAXES. That means you are just giving back some of what you took out of the pot in the first place. It's a simple accounting exercise and quite frankly unsustainable at the levels of salary, benefit and public sector growth that we have seen in this country and the province of Ontario over the last decade. Take a look at what is going on in Europe.....without change we are headed down the same path.

I, for one, do not think that working for the public sector is so great. In fact, I have been offered very good positions in the public sector and turned them down. I probably make as much money in the private sector as I would in the public sector. I won't work for a union nor do I need to. My skills and work ethic put me in a position to be able to make a good living without having to part of a collective bargaining process. I know that is not true for everyone, but it is for me.

It would be interesting, though, for those in the public sector who keep challenging those of us who work in the private sector to come over to our world for a couple of weeks. I can guarantee you that many couldn't make it in our world.

[ryry]

I agree that FDK can be difficult for some students to adapt to. My concern lies with the curriculum. If students are starting school earlier than I feel that it is only a matter of time before the expectations of FDK become those that we currently see in grade 1, and the curriculum is forced downward once again. Students already struggle to consolidate the concepts thrown at them, what will happen when the bar is raised? Looking at what kids are learning today compared to when I learned the same thing...there is at least a two year difference. I remember being able to earn an A, an extremely difficult task today and having the opportunity to be a kid. I see no harm in pulling your child after 1/2 day, let her be a kid, there is lots of time for school and growing up later. I hope she is feeling better too!

As for the current political situation, I think that teachers need to take a stand and fight for the right to bargain, I don't think there will be change in the legislated contract (which we were ready to accept) but we cannot stand by and let a government take away the right to negotiate with our employer. As a previous OP said, just try walking into a bosses office and asking for sick days, or a raise and see what happens - at least they had the right to ask - the legislation takes this right away from us and our employer.

I also agree with PP. Many people who work in the public sector have no idea what it is like to work in the private sector. I am currently on my third career as a teacher. I have worked in a factory and in sales, they weren't easy but I never once took any work home with me or spent my lunch break coaching a team or dealing with kids in a crisis situation. I am not saying this makes my job more difficult just different and I love it. I think everyone needs to respect the great differences in people and celebrate that we can all use our strengths to make the world a better place.

[kris32]

Well let me first say that i have not taken early childhood education and am not fully educated on the subject here.

But however, i have read articles saying that a childs attention span is good for 20 minutes ( of course in many cases, i am sure it depends on the child). I have also read that kids play paralel or something to the fact that they really aren't all as social as it is made out to be. Another reason why i don't see the big deal. But I do agree that it is great for them to still be around other children, it definately gets them used to the setting/surroundings and eases them into being social etc. instead of just throwing them in there.

[benmackmom]

I agree that FDK can be difficult for some students to adapt to. My concern lies with the curriculum. If students are starting school earlier than I feel that it is only a matter of time before the expectations of FDK become those that we currently see in grade 1, and the curriculum is forced downward once again. Students already struggle to consolidate the concepts thrown at them, what will happen when the bar is raised? Looking at what kids are learning today compared to when I learned the same thing...there is at least a two year difference. I remember being able to earn an A, an extremely difficult task today and having the opportunity to be a kid. I see no harm in pulling your child after 1/2 day, let her be a kid, there is lots of time for school and growing up later. I hope she is feeling better too!

As for the current political situation, I think that teachers need to take a stand and fight for the right to bargain, I don't think there will be change in the legislated contract (which we were ready to accept) but we cannot stand by and let a government take away the right to negotiate with our employer. As a previous OP said, just try walking into a bosses office and asking for sick days, or a raise and see what happens - at least they had the right to ask - the legislation takes this right away from us and our employer.

I also agree with PP. Many people who work in the public sector have no idea what it is like to work in the private sector. I am currently on my third career as a teacher. I have worked in a factory and in sales, they weren't easy but I never once took any work home with me or spent my lunch break coaching a team or dealing with kids in a crisis situation. I am not saying this makes my job more difficult just different and I love it. I think everyone needs to respect the great differences in people and celebrate that we can all use our strengths to make the world a better place.

ryry thanks for your input, I really appreciate your point of view. I do have a couple of points though.

You say you are on your 3rd career as a teacher and that in your previous 2 careers you never took any work home or spent your lunch break coaching a team. I would respectfully say that those other 2 careers were just jobs. I have a career (as an accountant) and have many times worked at and from home. I have spent many lunch hours dealing with customer issues that were of a crisis situation (of course the definition of crisis is different in our respective workplaces, but each has its own importance). Teachers (and other public sector employees) do not hold a monopoly of "going above and beyond."

As for coaching a team, that is volunteer work. Parents and students all around Ontario, in the public system, are finding out that while many teachers do extra curriculars for the love of it, they are not beyond holding their time hostage to suit their purposes. I too volunteer my time - at the local hospital and for The Canadian Cancer Society. We are all members of society and it's great that we can participate in society through volunteer work. You are fortunate enough to be able to do it at your workplace.

While listing the things you never had to do in your previous 2 jobs, you also failed to mention that you didn't get the 11 weeks (8 in the summer + 1 in March + 2 at Christmas) in holidays like teachers get the first year of teaching. You failed to mention the benefit package that started "right out of the gate" that is by far richer than the average Ontarian. I don't begrudge any teacher these things, but I would think you would agree that these are unheard of in the private sector.

So while I respect the great differences in people, I also do not recognize them selectively. It is only when we choose to become aware of how the other side perceives us and accept certain facts that I believe our world will be made a better place.

I don't agree with what the government did, but I also don't believe they did it out of malice. Analyzing numbers and assessing financial situations is my career, and the way Ontario is going something has to change. All teacher's (via their unions) were given an opportunity to work with the government, unfortunately not all chose to do so.

[ryry]

ryry thanks for your input, I really appreciate your point of view. I do have a couple of points though.

You say you are on your 3rd career as a teacher and that in your previous 2 careers you never took any work home or spent your lunch break coaching a team. I would respectfully say that those other 2 careers were just jobs. I have a career (as an accountant) and have many times worked at and from home. I have spent many lunch hours dealing with customer issues that were of a crisis situation (of course the definition of crisis is different in our respective workplaces, but each has its own importance). Teachers (and other public sector employees) do not hold a monopoly of "going above and beyond."

As for coaching a team, that is volunteer work. Parents and students all around Ontario, in the public system, are finding out that while many teachers do extra curriculars for the love of it, they are not beyond holding their time hostage to suit their purposes. I too volunteer my time - at the local hospital and for The Canadian Cancer Society. We are all members of society and it's great that we can participate in society through volunteer work. You are fortunate enough to be able to do it at your workplace.

While listing the things you never had to do in your previous 2 jobs, you also failed to mention that you didn't get the 11 weeks (8 in the summer + 1 in March + 2 at Christmas) in holidays like teachers get the first year of teaching. You failed to mention the benefit package that started "right out of the gate" that is by far richer than the average Ontarian. I don't begrudge any teacher these things, but I would think you would agree that these are unheard of in the private sector.

So while I respect the great differences in people, I also do not recognize them selectively. It is only when we choose to become aware of how the other side perceives us and accept certain facts that I believe our world will be made a better place.

I don't agree with what the government did, but I also don't believe they did it out of malice. Analyzing numbers and assessing financial situations is my career, and the way Ontario is going something has to change. All teacher's (via their unions) were given an opportunity to work with the government, unfortunately not all chose to do so.

Thanks for your point of view. Its easy to forget the benefits when you are already in the shoes ;-) You are correct. I did not get holidays like I do now nor did I receive benefits (at all). I did deal with situations of importance and was paid for every hour I worked (including overtime). I know people in the private sector that make more $ than I do and have better benefits but I do realize this is not the norm. I also realize that many people go above and beyond in many aspects of their life.

I also volunteered my time. It is great to give back to the community and fun too! Unfortunately the volunteer time is not always within the school I teach. I think the world would benefit from all people volunteering time (when/if they can). I am hearing so many people say that volunteering is part of my job (my guess is it those who don't volunteer ) - (so this is a bit of a soft spot), I love volunteering to coach teams and help tutor students but it is not a requirement.

I wasn't trying to recognize selectively, I think all jobs are important (careers or not) and respect those who try to do them to the best of their abilities. I don't think the public understands the situation (thanks to media). We accepted the government wage freeze and sick days cutback, we don not accept that we can not negotiage with our employer. This is what we are fighting, not just for us but for everyone. If the government can dictate our wages and contract it will filter to other jobs (careers).

As for those who accepted, the union members were not aware they accpted until it was said on the radio. This union also includes a 'me too' clause. Saving face in the public but reaping the rewards. ( another soft spot).

I really dislike all this union stuff and hate the media 'secrets'.

[Aimz]

I am pretty sure teachers are allowed sick days, they are not going to be allowed to bank them like they used to in the past, which I 10000000% agree with, sorry that is just not right.

Full day kindergarten is pretty helpful from my standpoint, a lot of parents send their children to daycare because they work - so I see this more as helping than hurting

Right, but why should all taxpayers have to support free daycare in the form of full-day kindergarten? When the government is running a deficit, and reports have cited that the $1.5 billion program aimed at educating three and four-year olds should be cut, the program should be cut. It's nothing but McGuinty refusing to back down on something that he proposed, despite proof that it's costing more than it's worth.

I don't think Ontario has ever had a worse premier. He has single-handedly taken us from a "have" province to a "have-not" one.

Also, electric_viking, I wholeheartedly agree. Canadians are way too complacent. For everything. From gas prices to holding our elected representatives accountable to protesting their ludicrous ideas and suggestions, which affect all of us.

[Granger]

And bye bye Mr. Dalton. Unfortunately there is a huge mess to clean up.

(He announced his resignation as Ontario's premier today).

[Aimz]

Perfect thread timing

I wish the best of luck to whoever has the task of cleaning up the mess he's left behind, as kw01ai mentioned.

IMO he did the right thing...for once. I guess the hole was just too deep - angry teachers (a major voting base for him), a power plant scandal, and a disgruntled opposition. It was probably either this or an eventual vote of no confidence, and I guess he saw the writing on the wall.

[lessthannat]

Or someone will create a bigger mess

[Ciel]

I never understood why McGuinty never brought Smitherman to account for the e-Health and ornge problems that got passed on to successor ministers.

[RebeccaRYoung]

I am a teacher, but I work in private schools. I think the full day kindergarten is frustrating for everyone. The curriculum is too demanding for the children. The private system is so very different from the public system, and each private school is different. I can understand the huge amount of work involved to have some students working for half a day and others working for a full day. How could each student learn the same amount of things? I'm not sure that parents understand that this would be virtually impossible to do. I am, however, willing to take suggestions about how to complete such a task. This is completely sincere. If you have an idea to accomplish this, then speak up, because I don't see how all the students would learn the same amount at the end of the year.