Protest talk - thread

[Patty Smyth]

I'm sorry, but, if your parents make more than 45k, you only get loans.
I'm f****** getting married to have the bursaries in order to absorb the rise!

Sometimes, and don't get me wrong, I get angry at people who only take parts of the information available and think it is all that have been said!

Ok but what' s wrong with taking out loans??? I did, my DH did, my parents saved money for me to go to school as I am for my kids. Why is it wrong to take out loans?

[Patty Smyth]

saradouce we are not against the protestors, we are against what it has turned in to which has nothing to do with the original reason. These fringe groups do not represent the students. People have a right to protest all they want but they do not have the right to hold the majority hostage and at the same time destroy the city and it's reputation.

We all went to school and we all paid our dues. It's time for the students of today to do the same. Yes it was hard back then too but people need to learn to make bigger sacrifices. I don't mean you I mean many who are protesting have never sacrificed anything in their lives. We live in a nanny state that gives it population a sense of entitlement that is not their due.

There's a reason the rest of Canada hates us. Believe me if I were in another province who was handing over a ton of their money in transfer payments and saw this sh*t on TV every day I would freaking hold back my tax money and say get the hell out and seperate and by the way pay us back the transfer payments.

[AnnieP]

Je l'avais prédit, ce "thread" dégénère.

[MiaowTheCat]

sara, I know that tuition will rise to $3800 by 2017, but that does or does not include all the fees? I think it does not, right?

[Patty Smyth]

Je l'avais prédit, ce "thread" dégénère.

It won't Annie, we're just trying to explain that we have "been there" it's not like thousands haven't been through this before. this is not the first generation to go to university. I wonder if they realize this? This is not out of the blue.

sara, I know that tuition will rise to $3800 by 2017, but that does or does not include all the fees? I think it does not, right?

By the way there are fees for elementary and high school also. Between fees, books and uniforms last year I paid about $1K each roughly so nothing is free.

[MiaowTheCat]

I just want to address (damnit, wasn't going to say much lol) a point you made earlier Patty about society becoming complacent/lazy if its people are "given" such cheap schooling (sorry for the paraphrase, but hope you get which post I mean!).

Students in Europe either don't pay anything for university tuition or in the few countries that do have fees, they don't amount to much more than $1500 CAN per year. Now, can we honestly say that the whole of Europe is a bunch of lazies because they have free tuition? The Scandinavian countries are frequently (if not ALWAYS) ranked as countries with the highest standard of living, yet they don't seem to suffer from their kids not paying a dime for tuition (none of those countries has tuition fees). They are also some of the most productive societies. I can also think of Germany (which does charge, but about the amount that kids are paying now in QC). Germany certainly can't be classed as a couch potato society.

The problem here (in QC) must lie elsewhere if there is a lack of productivity or workers. I don't think we can make a straight correlation between no tuition=unmotivated society.

I think 2010ontest made a good point about going back to essentials, but for me, her words probably meant something different. I see going back to the basics as also meaning that we (North America in whole) should go back to appreciating and RESPECTING a REGULAR man's salary. There is no shame in using your hands, right? What I mean by that is that I find North Americans have become so enraptured by "easy" money that everyone is either trying to find a career in finance or be the inventor of the next Google/work in an office in front of a computer all day to make "big" bucks. Not many kids today in our countries desire to follow a career path in what we call blue collar professions . When's the last time you heard a bunch of kids saying they wanted to be plumbers LOL. Ultimately, this "flashy" lifestyle that is perpetuated in the media is a huge negative to our countries. Universities here also cater to this by having more and more of what I call "fluff" degrees. I stepped away from linguistics partially because I was kind of aghast that so many people are devoting their lives to research on topics like the "distribution and behavior of the interrogative "tu" in Quebec French <---that was a recent talk at Concordia by a girl I used to know.

No disrespect to anyone who is fascinated by that, but the issue is that too many people are taking these "joke" (sorry for lack of a better word!) paths in life, careers that are best left to being hobbies in my opinion. I kept asking myself while studying linguistics "how is this going to tangibly change anyone's life" and by that, I mean, does studying this topic help reduce anyone's hunger/suffering, does it change society as a whole in an indelible way? I think too many pursue careers that don't benefit the majority of society, and then it is these people who end up not finding a job and have to live close to poverty line or on social aid. I can't count how many students I have known over time from various "social science" degree who could not do anything useful with their degrees (me included!). What's the use if only 1 out of 10 graduating students can find a job in that profession?

There is also a lot of corruption here in Quebec, so much so that when I first came here and learned about unions in places like hospitals virtually acting like thugs/mafia, I was quite shocked. Look at the construction industry here/all the kickbacks and the Charbonneau inquiry. Money is bleeding out of this province left and right and it seems to me that raising tuition is like a small drop in a bucket compared to the mass corruption and $$ that is being lost in other industries.

And a last point: I know Quebec is unlike any other province in regard to childcare-$7 a day. Do you ladies think that is a good policy? Places like Ontario can cost $2,000 a month in daycare. That is a huge difference and if Quebec were to start doing the same, that's also a lot of money right there.

Not trying to start a fight (really!), but I've been meaning to ask the opinions of you on the forum since most of you have kids/probably have an opinion on this.

Disclaimer: I am not PRO raising daycare rates, just asking others

[MiaowTheCat]

Patty, I don't expect it to be "free", but I do vaguely remember that when I paid tuition at Concordia, the fees rivaled that of the tuition, so I was just wondering if that $3800 would actually be more like $6K?

I don't agree with most of the fees. You should see some of the non-negotiable crap that they make everyone pay. Every semester pay for the student organization, pay for the university to have a radio station/online show, pay for this social club/that social club, whatever. It doesn't matter if you are never part of any of these organizations, you still have to pay!


I just looked at Concordia's page. After student fees, someone taking 30 credits a year (regular full time) will pay just under $2K per semester in tuition, so $4K per year after fees are added. So it does add up.

[GeorgiaK]

Sara, when I was ready to enter university, the tuition went from $500 per year to $1500 per year. That was back in the early 1990s. My parents worked 3 jobs between them to send three daughters to university. All three of us worked all year long at part time jobs in order to afford the "extras". None of us qualified for loans or bursaries because my parents made too much.

We got out owing money because at the end, someone had to pay for the huge increase. I don't regret it since my education has allowed me to have a successful and lucrative career. I was able to pay off the debt and got a great career out of it. It was worth it.

[saradouce]

I'm not allowed to have loans.

Even working full time, I cannot afford school.

Patty, the things withs loans is that they are DEBT.

Remember what just happened in 2008 and what they keep saying all around: the canadian has too much debt. My parents put money aside for me... Guess what happen with it in the recession of 2008?

I don't want debt, but I don't have the choice. Maybe I should make a baby too? So that way, you (with your taxes!) are going to pay me more bursaries, loans. You'll pay for the daycare and also for the med.care of this baby?

This make no sense. In a socialist society, we should not think me-myself and I. It's about us, the future.

I know that I don't wanna pay now (I'm not talking about free school, just no rise!) I'll pay later with my taxes.

I'm already paying taxes, so basically, I'm paying for your kids to go to school! I'll pay for it all life long.

[saradouce]

Parce que lorsqu'on ne se sent pas en sécurité de voter parce qu'on est intimidé et que le vote se fait à main levée, ben oui on chercher à se protéger parce que notre famille a besoin de nous et de notre soutient.

C'est pas démocratique pantoute ces votes là.

Most of the Cegep now vote secretly.
You know what? Even then, the green's never show up.

[saradouce]

oh but you have loan, this is so better than absolutly nothing and need to work in same time and take 5 year to do a program instead of 3 years.

Sorry Sara, we also know what this is. Right now hubby is at university part time, work full time and we have 4 young child at home. And no we didn't use the loan or bursury this time and we choose to pay our stuff, we don't ask to have free tuition we are against.

And yes we know how the system of loan and bursary work, we have use it in the past... This didn't have change alot.

Don't talk when you don't know.

I've took 4 years instead of 3. I don't have loans. My parents make too much they say.

I'm not asking for free tuition. I'm asking for respect!

[takasuite]

from 2004-2008, i (actually my parents ) paid tuition fee : 500 ( social insurance - 1 year ), ~5500 ( 4 courses in one semester ) , + books, study permit 125$ + CAQ( Quebec ) 100 : 225 x 2 + ( 225 x 3 :English , French course + books ) (not count the school fee for English and French Course yet ) for international student.

when i came here 2003 ( Canada ). i read the news that few years ago, students worked in the summer, then they could pay the school fee + books, but after that No more

[Patty Smyth]

I just want to address (damnit, wasn't going to say much lol) a point you made earlier Patty about society becoming complacent/lazy if its people are "given" such cheap schooling (sorry for the paraphrase, but hope you get which post I mean!).

Students in Europe either don't pay anything for university tuition or in the few countries that do have fees, they don't amount to much more than $1500 CAN per year. Now, can we honestly say that the whole of Europe is a bunch of lazies because they have free tuition? The Scandinavian countries are frequently (if not ALWAYS) ranked as countries with the highest standard of living, yet they don't seem to suffer from their kids not paying a dime for tuition (none of those countries has tuition fees). They are also some of the most productive societies. I can also think of Germany (which does charge, but about the amount that kids are paying now in QC). Germany certainly can't be classed as a couch potato society.

I would say that much of Europe is not productive, not discounting the Scandanavian countries but I wouldn't want to pay their income tax. Take Greece(the ultimate nanny state) France , England , none of these countries are as prodcutive or wealthy as they were before. They are in a bigger crisis than us.

In Germany you have to maintain a high grade point average to qualify for the free tution.

The problem here (in QC) must lie elsewhere if there is a lack of productivity or workers. I don't think we can make a straight correlation between no tuition=unmotivated society.

I think 2010ontest made a good point about going back to essentials, but for me, her words probably meant something different. I see going back to the basics as also meaning that we (North America in whole) should go back to appreciating and RESPECTING a REGULAR man's salary. There is no shame in using your hands, right? What I mean by that is that I find North Americans have become so enraptured by "easy" money that everyone is either trying to find a career in finance or be the inventor of the next Google/work in an office in front of a computer all day to make "big" bucks. Not many kids today in our countries desire to follow a career path in what we call blue collar professions . When's the last time you heard a bunch of kids saying they wanted to be plumbers LOL. Ultimately, this "flashy" lifestyle that is perpetuated in the media is a huge negative to our countries. Universities here also cater to this by having more and more of what I call "fluff" degrees. I stepped away from linguistics partially because I was kind of aghast that so many people are devoting their lives to research on topics like the "distribution and behavior of the interrogative "tu" in Quebec French <---that was a recent talk at Concordia by a girl I used to know.

No disrespect to anyone who is fascinated by that, but the issue is that too many people are taking these "joke" (sorry for lack of a better word!) paths in life, careers that are best left to being hobbies in my opinion. I kept asking myself while studying linguistics "how is this going to tangibly change anyone's life" and by that, I mean, does studying this topic help reduce anyone's hunger/suffering, does it change society as a whole in an indelible way? I think too many pursue careers that don't benefit the majority of society, and then it is these people who end up not finding a job and have to live close to poverty line or on social aid. I can't count how many students I have known over time from various "social science" degree who could not do anything useful with their degrees (me included!). What's the use if only 1 out of 10 graduating students can find a job in that profession?

There is also a lot of corruption here in Quebec, so much so that when I first came here and learned about unions in places like hospitals virtually acting like thugs/mafia, I was quite shocked. Look at the construction industry here/all the kickbacks and the Charbonneau inquiry. Money is bleeding out of this province left and right and it seems to me that raising tuition is like a small drop in a bucket compared to the mass corruption and $$ that is being lost in other industries.

I agree that we probably have the most corrupt government in Canada at the moment.

And a last point: I know Quebec is unlike any other province in regard to childcare-$7 a day. Do you ladies think that is a good policy? Places like Ontario can cost $2,000 a month in daycare. That is a huge difference and if Quebec were to start doing the same, that's also a lot of money right there.

I cannot even afford $7 daycare and I will explain below in my reply to saradouce.

Not trying to start a fight (really!), but I've been meaning to ask the opinions of you on the forum since most of you have kids/probably have an opinion on this.

Disclaimer: I am not PRO raising daycare rates, just asking others

.

[Patty Smyth]

I'm not allowed to have loans.

Even working full time, I cannot afford school.

Patty, the things withs loans is that they are DEBT.

Remember what just happened in 2008 and what they keep saying all around: the canadian has too much debt. My parents put money aside for me... Guess what happen with it in the recession of 2008?

I don't want debt, but I don't have the choice. Maybe I should make a baby too? So that way, you (with your taxes!) are going to pay me more bursaries, loans. You'll pay for the daycare and also for the med.care of this baby?

This make no sense. In a socialist society, we should not think me-myself and I. It's about us, the future.

I know that I don't wanna pay now (I'm not talking about free school, just no rise!) I'll pay later with my taxes.

I'm already paying taxes, so basically, I'm paying for your kids to go to school! I'll pay for it all life long.

Unfortunately you won't be getting any of my tax money since I have no income and therefore pay no taxes.

[DH666]

How long has it been since there were tuition hikes in this province? How much has inflation grown since then? Even with all of the hikes, the fees would be the lowest in Canada. All of the other students in the rest of Canada assume a larger debt load than students in Quebec to begin with. I think that the increase is justified just based on the inflation rate since the last increase. Furthermore, I think that after the increases, the tuittion should be indexed to inflation. I had to pay for my school, took on debt and paid it back by working hard. Would you rather try to go to school in the US? One semester would cost you more than 4 years here at a good university!

Every taxpayer in every province pays for all schools with their taxes just like they pay for healthcare whether they use it or not. If the ones using the system are asked to pay more, then so be it. I don't think the increase is unreasonable.