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Thread: Explaining A Misconception About Christmas

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    Canadian Genius gryphon's Avatar
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    Many people today assume that christmas is just a christianized form of saturnalia but that isnt the case.

    Well about christmas as a roman holiday originally, thats only half true. The other half is that the early christians often celebrated at the same time as the pagans and made their celebrations resemble the pagan ones in order to hide to escape persecution. Many pagan elements in christmas are holdovers from that, not from attempts to appropriate a pagan holiday.


    Christmas is not saturnalia and should not be mistaken for it.


    I don't celebrate christmas but historical errors like that irk me.
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    It is true that it became part of mass conversions but the fact remains that many christians held on to pagan customs they had to hide from perseciton from the romans.

    This was more due to the fact that christmas now had some resemblance to saturnalia and others but not as deep as many think.

    The puritans banned christmas celebrations due to extreme fanatical beliefs that it was impure and pagan but not all christians felt the same
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    Almost all Christians celebrate Christmas as the birth of Christ. Some reject the commercialization of it. But most folks accept the spirit of giving and tradition of spending time with family.

    There was a time when Dec 25 was a work day still. IN fact, congress met on Christmas in the US a few times.
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    I really have a bad taste for the commercialism that has become Christmas. So many people get so stressed out about money and trying to over-extend themselves just to do what they think makes and looks like a great Christmas to others. It's really sad.

    My family has always tried to make Christmas about family and friends. Growing up, with my mom sick with cancer and a single mom after my parents divorced, we never had any money. But...the most wonderful Christmas memories I treasure are about those days Spending time with family, extended family and our friends, playing games, singing, sharing a meal. I tried as a parent to instill this kind of Christmas in my dd's, and it's a tradition they all carry on. Midnight mass to thank the lord for our lives and that of loved ones also has carried through to all of my childrens families "_

    Even though we see our families and friends throughout the year, there's something special about them all gathering in the same room, sharing a great meal and telling stories from throughout the years.

    That is what Christmas should be about. So many people say it's a pegan holiday, it teaches our little ones to lie and a bunch of other crap,, when the fact is, if you just relax and spend time with family and celebrate Christmas the way it was meant to be, everyone would enjoy the season!
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    My family Christmas was always a big deal. My mother was always left alone at Christmas, her mother vacationed, her father was in the hospital. My dad decided to change that and made Christmas a big deal. There were always tons of presents, traditions, and a great dinner. I'm not necessarily a fan of the commercialization of Christmas, but you don't need a lot of money to give presents. Last year I collected tons of samples and gave them as gifts in nice baskets.

    I think that the spirit of giving is important because it helps develop empathy for those in need, reminds us to think about others and not always about ourselves, and it reminds us to have fun.
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    Like I said, I dont like the misconceptions.
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    It's always a great thing for families to get together, to appreciate what we have or think of the poor. . . .but shouldn't we be asking ourselves what God would want? . .or Jesus? Nowhere in the Bible was there ever a "christian" birthday, let alone Christ's. He wasn't born Dec 25th, and almost every tradition associated with Christmas is from a non-Christian religion.
    I can't imagine this is what he would want?? . . .
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    Quote Originally Posted by MortgageQueen View Post
    He wasn't born Dec 25th, and almost every tradition associated with Christmas is from a non-Christian religion. I can't imagine this is what he would want?? . . .
    But there's a lot of what we don't know about Jesus, and what we do know comes from written accounts not written in Jesus' time.

    At some point the Church, at a time before it got splintered into different groups like we have today, decided to celebrate His birth on December 25 to coincide with the pagan rituals that existed already. Easter is another celebration that coincides with a pagan ritual. It's one of few reasons that Christianity managed to attract and retain worshippers.

    Some historians say Jesus would be appalled at the idea that a whole religion (let alone the wars) was based on what he said.
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    Quote Originally Posted by blueeyetea View Post
    But there's a lot of what we don't know about Jesus, and what we do know comes from written accounts not written in Jesus' time.

    At some point the Church, at a time before it got splintered into different groups like we have today, decided to celebrate His birth on December 25 to coincide with the pagan rituals that existed already. Easter is another celebration that coincides with a pagan ritual. It's one of few reasons that Christianity managed to attract and retain worshippers.

    Some historians say Jesus would be appalled at the idea that a whole religion (let alone the wars) was based on what he said.
    Yeah it's hard to believe any of it actually.

    Considering you can tell 10 people the same story and get 10 different versions when it is retold. Imagine what was made up to write the bible 60 years after his "death"
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    Quote Originally Posted by MortgageQueen View Post
    It's always a great thing for families to get together, to appreciate what we have or think of the poor. . . .but shouldn't we be asking ourselves what God would want? . .or Jesus? Nowhere in the Bible was there ever a "christian" birthday, let alone Christ's. He wasn't born Dec 25th, and almost every tradition associated with Christmas is from a non-Christian religion.
    I can't imagine this is what he would want?? . . .
    Two of the four gospels talk about praising God. Luke spends the first two chapters talking about God's gift unfolding - a gift that has been promised since Genesis. So the way I see it is that it's not which day that is important but that we do have a day to celebrate. The angels sang to celebrate and the wise men and shepherds came to worship and so we too should do the same.
    My favourite part of Christmas is the Christmas eve candle light service. I get such a peaceful, joyful feeling - it's hard to describe.

    This is just what I believe not meant to judge how or if others celebrate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by blueeyetea View Post
    But there's a lot of what we don't know about Jesus, and what we do know comes from written accounts not written in Jesus' time.

    At some point the Church, at a time before it got splintered into different groups like we have today, decided to celebrate His birth on December 25 to coincide with the pagan rituals that existed already. Easter is another celebration that coincides with a pagan ritual. It's one of few reasons that Christianity managed to attract and retain worshippers.

    Some historians say Jesus would be appalled at the idea that a whole religion (let alone the wars) was based on what he said.
    I couldn't agree with you more Blueyetea. Jesus himself pointed out that he had legions of angels at his service if he wanted to "fight". . Matthew 26:53 "Or do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father to supply me at this moment more than twelve legions of angels?"
    Obviously, it was not his goal to use warfare. . . or he would have.

    In regards to the Boble books being written at different times, the bible itself points out that it is not man's word, but God's. . .and most Christians would agree that God is certainly capable of such a small task as inspiring the writers of the bible.
    2 Timothy 3:16, 17 states:

    "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."

    When you look at the bible's prophetic record of fulfillment, it also adds confidence in the fact that it was inspired by God.


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    Quote Originally Posted by MortgageQueen View Post
    It's always a great thing for families to get together, to appreciate what we have or think of the poor. . . .but shouldn't we be asking ourselves what God would want? . .or Jesus? Nowhere in the Bible was there ever a "christian" birthday, let alone Christ's. He wasn't born Dec 25th, and almost every tradition associated with Christmas is from a non-Christian religion.
    I can't imagine this is what he would want?? . . .
    So your Jesus wouldn't want familes to get together and have one day devoted to the children? Gee, he sounds like a sourpuss.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MortgageQueen View Post

    In regards to the Bible books being written at different times, the bible itself points out that it is not man's word, but God's. . .and most Christians would agree that God is certainly capable of such a small task as inspiring the writers of the bible.
    2 Timothy 3:16, 17 states:

    "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."

    When you look at the bible's prophetic record of fulfillment, it also adds confidence in the fact that it was inspired by God.

    [/FONT]
    [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/I]
    YES!!!

    *brain explodes with happiness*

    Finally a Christian who says the whole Bible is true and uses one of my favorite verses to prove it!

    The Bible IS all or nothing. Believe it all or believe none of it.


    EVERY verse is inspired by God if you are a believer. None can be ignored.

    Leviticus 20:13
    If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

    Genesis 3:16
    Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

    1st Corinthians 14:34-35
    Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
    And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

    1st Timothy 2:11-14
    Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
    But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
    For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
    And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

    And a couple of my favourites.

    Psalm 137:9
    Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

    2 Kings 2:23-24
    And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
    And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

    Seriously, read this one:


    Numbers 31:9-18



    And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.
    And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.
    And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.
    And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.
    And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.
    And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.
    And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
    Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord.
    Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
    But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.


    Kill all the female captives and the male children, but not the virgin little girls - those you get to keep as sex slaves!! Go God!

    And as you point out MortgageQueen the ENTIRE Bible is the word of God as shown in 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

    Believe all of it or believe none of it.
    Last edited by DaveP; Fri, Dec 14th, 2012 at 02:17 PM.
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    Oh Dave. . . We've been through a few of those quotes before. . . so I'm not going to re-hash it.

    My short answer to those multiple quotes, is you can't just pluck isolated scriptures out of the Bible and claim God is nasty.
    Yes, "ALL" scripture is inspired. . .which is why ALL of it has to be read, studied in depth and cross-referenced to understand it.

    I well know that you have read the Bible. I have too. I had many, many teachers that helped me understand. . .and since I haven't reached perfection (yet. . hee hee!) I'm STILL learning. It is an extremely deep book with many nuances, which in turn require understanding the root words of many Greek and Hebrew words, analyzing ancient customs, Jewish, greek cultures among just the few.

    As an example . . . .your comment about the "virgin girl captives" that you say were to be "kept as sex slaves". Isrealites were never allowed to "rape" women in any kingdom or city they conquered. . .nor did they sexually abuse any female captives.(although the same could not be said about these girl's own nations) Besides that. . . many of those "virgins" could and were, taken as wives.
    So you see, things don't always seem as they appear. . . which is why ALL scripture must be examined
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveP View Post
    YES!!!

    *brain explodes with happiness*

    Finally a Christian who says the whole Bible is true and uses one of my favorite verses to prove it!

    The Bible IS all or nothing. Believe it all or believe none of it.


    EVERY verse is inspired by God if you are a believer. None can be ignored.

    Leviticus 20:13
    If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

    Genesis 3:16
    Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

    1st Corinthians 14:34-35
    Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
    And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

    1st Timothy 2:11-14
    Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
    But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
    For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
    And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

    And a couple of my favourites.

    Psalm 137:9
    Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

    2 Kings 2:23-24
    And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
    And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

    Seriously, read this one:


    Numbers 31:9-18



    And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.
    And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.
    And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.
    And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.
    And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.
    And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.
    And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
    Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord.
    Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
    But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.


    Kill all the female captives and the male children, but not the virgin little girls - those you get to keep as sex slaves!! Go God!

    And as you point out MortgageQueen the ENTIRE Bible is the word of God as shown in 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

    Believe all of it or believe none of it.
    Out of the context, you can torn a verse of the Bible.....+the part that i highlited in red was added....it is not in my Bible
    Last edited by Mia001; Sat, Dec 15th, 2012 at 12:59 AM.
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